They are Japanese.
Almost anything in the ordinary Japanese life can have a Yokai form or spawn a Yokai. A large number of Yokai have a shape that resembles human or they can disguise as humans.
Like anything Japanese, they have rules that apply to them and how people have to interact with them.
>Like anything Japanese, they have rules that apply to them and how people have to interact with them.
Like not being able to cross running water, being repulse by garlic, being invulnerable to anything but silver/cold iron, will cause cave ins if you curse or spit in a mine, being recognised by the bark-covered back, bursts in sunlight...
Nta, but the difference is consistency.
Consider this: from all the "vampire rules" you've listed, NONE applies to legends from my country and the concept of a werewolf is a wholesale cultural import from horror movies.
this might surprise you to fin out but 'yokai' only became 'consistent' in the late 19th/early 20th century and before then there was a lot of regional variation about how they appeared, what they were called and what they did
Mythanon here. This is gonna be very nerdy and long winded but bear with me.
It's a matter of degrees. A Yokai is no different from a minor Kami, just much weaker. Yokai can become Kami (see holy trees and caves), or Kami can degrade into Yokai (see Sarugami, monkey Kami that stopped being worshipped and became Yokai).
It also that everything HAS a kami (lowercase k), which is like a spirit or soul or spark of existence, but not everything IS a Kami (capital K) which is more akin to the Western idea of a god. So a Yokai is just a higher degree of lowercase kami. So a kami can become a Kami, but not every does. Humans can become Kami through various means. Be it that they were that important or their spirit was just vengeful and they were enshrined. Either way, they become Kami.
Shinto is pretty complex in its mix of animistic and totemistic traits moxed with ancestor worship, except it's not really YOUR ancestors but important people in general. Not to mention its mixing with Buddhism (where the images and forms of Kami come from and enshrining people comes from), stealing from the Ainu, and that Shinto is ancient but was not codified until Buddhism came to Japan. They wanted to codify their religion, or really folk religions, into one pan Japanese religion. The actual practices of what would become Shinto go back AT LEAST 3500 years (earliest archeological evidence is from around 1500 BC). Probably more, since animism is as old as humanity, but archeology can't prove it and there are no records, so we're left to guess.
So that's the comparative religion answer. In practice they're the same as monsters. We know Faeries and Giants and Demons, but a faceless guy who only scares people, or the guy with an eye on his butt are strange and exotic.
Take the Aigamaxu of the Khoikhoi. Humanoids with eyes on their feet so they walk on their hands. Exotic because we're not familiar with them.
Pic of an interpretation of a Bukavac.
>It also that everything HAS a kami (lowercase k), which is like a spirit or soul or spark of existence, but not everything IS a Kami (capital K) which is more akin to the Western idea of a god
That sounds very confusing, why did they use such similar terminology for them? And what are some other misconceptions the West has about Yokai? Also, MythAnon, where can we contact you outside of /tg/, do you frequent other boards, or any non-Ganker sites preferably?
He was kind of wrong because its not capitalized vs non capitalized (japanese doesn't exactly have capitalization). The "godlike" entities are Okami ("Greater" or "Royal" Spirit rather than "Normal" Spirit). Typically, yokai are also independent entities rather than object spirits. Kami *can* become yokai given time, for example almost any object that's been neglected for a long time without fully degrading can turn into a Tsukumogami, or animated object.
If you're into webcomic stuff theres a cool little-known one called Doormant (weird spelling intentional)about a world where everyone can communicate with one specific kind of kami.
It's easier when you translate, so that's why I used capital and lowercase and few people actually want to get into the nitty gritty of Japanese characters.
Okami also doesn't refer to all Kami. You don't call, say, a local fertility Kami an Okami. A Kami worshipped in a very specific temple or region in Honshu (I don't know, picked random part of Japan, but say, a hit spring Kami from the North wouldn't be worshipped or probably even known in the South) isn't an Okami. But you definitely call Amaterasu an Okami.
ah, yeah, that's fair. They do have a shitload of minor gods that aren't part of the main pantheon that are significantly above object spirits. I stand corrected, friend.
One, I'm not giving you my info on the net. Especially not on Ganker. I post when I have time and a myth needs explaining to clarifying. And even then it's 2000 characters. Not exactly in depth.
Two, it makes perfect sense in Japanese. As anon above said, consider the word spirit. It can mean willpower or soul or ghost. Translating things is always imperfect. Especially when it comes from logographic languages such as Japanese. It may read the same, but the written word changes the meaning.
And three, misconceptions. I mean outside of what I mentioned above, not a lot. It's mythology. Myth has many, many variations. Anything could at one point have been true. As long as it folds generally into the base myth.
I guess maybe one that I constantly see is about Oni. Often they're portrayed or translated as Demons or evil Ogres. They are not. I talked about this before here, but Oni come in three kinds. The first are punishers in Hell. These are the youngest, added when Shinto was mixing with Buddhism. They're also usually good working under Enma/Yama. More like Angels guarding Hell than Demons. The second are people turned unit Oni due to bad deeds. These include Hannya, which are further divided into three. It's a lot. Not gonna go super into it. The third are a subtype of the second and children of Yamata-no-Orochi, like Shuten-Doji. Also Mezu(ki) and Gozu(ki) are not usually seen as Oni. They're their own class of being. But, again, version.
Oh, and Tengu as Goblins (I mean... Really?) or linked with the Chinese Tiangou (the name is borrowed but the creature itself is completely different). Tengu are complex and have a long history of changes based on time, region, and even specific Tengu themselves. They were neutral, tricksters, always evil, helpful... The translation bothers me is my point.
But yea, beyond minor details of the myth itself, no, not a lot outright misconceptions I've seen. Versions exist after all.
a while back I set up an email specifically for taking convos off Ganker. It's an option but if you're not into the idea that's entirely understandable.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Sure, I’m fine with that, thanks. Also, what are some Tsukumogami equivalents from other cultures, if any exist?
2 years ago
Anonymous
honestly don't know any, closest I can think is golems from qabala, and those are intentionally animated by a practitioner, not awakened on their own. Shinto really has some interesting unique concepts.
Also apologies for any confusion, I'm assuming you're looking for mythanon, I was just giving him a suggestion for opening external contact, but if you wanna talk mythology more i'm at [email protected]
2 years ago
Anonymous
I know that Kitsune are associated with Inari, are any other Yokai tied to a Kami like that? Or is it just them?
I’ll probably check that out. Thanks for sharing this anon.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I know that Kitsune are associated with Inari, are any other Yokai tied to a Kami like that? Or is it just them?
Three-legged crows are often divine messengers if not incarnations of the sun, Tengu are mountain temple guardians, and Tanuki are often alternatives to Kitsune as servants of various gods.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Three-legged crows
Why are black birds associated with the sun of all things?
2 years ago
Anonymous
It is a Chinese thing. They depicted the sun as a red or golden three-legged crow and the Japanese partially copied them.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Sunspots.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Because the ancient chinese that invented the legend totally knew about sun spots.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's a pretty common myth across the world that ravens/crows weren't always black, but were scorched black by celestial fire. It's common in Native American legends from multiple peoples stretching from Alaska on down, and I think there's a similar story in Australia too.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Maori and polynesian stuff talk about that too. Lots of myths like to mention how crows used to be white but were burnt black by the sun in some way.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Greek as well until Apollo burnt them for spreading rumors.
What was up with most Oni being Blue or Red Myth Anon? Why make them those colors, and why not other ones? Also, do you have a throwaway email like that other anon does so we can talk without being at Ganker’s mercy?
Does that differ at all between the male and female Oni? Also, I don’t really consider demons as a really “lawful” bunch, why do you say that?
As far as I'm aware, there's no real reason for their skin color. It might be the connotation with the colors though. Red is often seen as angry, and blue as cold.
In Chinese they pretty much outright claim that there is hardly a difference between a god and a yaoguai at all as far as creatures go. There is no clear species classification or physical difference between them. They are the same classification of spiritual creature that is greater than a human or animal with varying powers that humans lack.
Mostly a god has a job as appointed by the celestial court and is ordered to control a lake, river, mountain etc. While a yaoguai is more of a wandering monster that takes up residence in a wild area and eats people until a hero or god kills it or gives it a job. Often they convert to Buddhism and becomes a guardian of that area and helps people from that point on. Other times they are caught and punished by the Celestial bureaucracy and forced to work a shittier job like be the god of a bathroom or swamp for a few thousand years.
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That's mostly due to the folklore coming from a few hundred to thousand different villages that had little communication with each other so each one had their own term, their own version of things like the Tengu and how they work, and sometimes with wildly different descriptions of what they are etc. Sometimes the differences in a creature is just a regional story being slightly different from another.
One town says they are huge red faced gods, another says they are little crow people, another says they look like old monks, another says they are more like dogs, another claims they are little people ....it just goes on like that.
Yea but that's Chinese. While Japan certainly took stuff from it, it's also very, very different. It's the whole Roman and Greek thing. One took from the other but the end result is different for people who actually look into it.
And you are correct about that yes. I believe I mentioned that Shinto was created as a codification of said different and dispersed folk religions as a reaction to Buddhism.
I don't know what I hate more - weebs or the fact that Japan deserved to have them with its hard work, while Europeans do jack shit to preserve their own culture.
Europe preserves its culture, but we don't export it. Everyone in an area knows about their local and neighboring myths and stories. Go to Italy. Everyone knows it. Go to Germany. Everyone knows it. Go to Switzerland, or Spain, or France. Everyone knows the local history and lore. We just don't oversaturate it. And also because the main market for this shit is America. Americans don't generally want to buy European stuff. Why probably differs from person to person, but I've seen at least some claim that US lore is just European stuff sifted through a Puritan and Christian view. Quite wrong, as it's a minority of German and British (British having a lot of French influences) myths mixed with Native American. There's little to none of Slavic, Austrian, Spanish (though that's more South America), post Roman Italian, or really any other stuff there.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Thanks, do you have any sources for all of this please? Also, are you Myth Anon?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Indeed I am. Well, source for which part? The Apollo and crow thing? A simple Google search will reveal that one and its in a lot of miscellaneous Greek myth books.
The Chinese vs Japanese? That's more comparative and harder.
The Shinto thing is more historical theory though widely accepted. The Nihon Shoki and Kojiki were written around the time. The Wikipedia article on History of Shinto is a good start.
First - no, second - Americans still use cowboys in their mass media, while Europe for some reason hate own national symbols, you never see the use of historical motifs and symbols at the same level as Japan does. It reaches the point of absurdity when Asians are more obsessed with European culture than Europeans themselves.
Again. Not entirely true. Plenty of books, comics, shows, and whatever are made. Just so few are exported. Last month a movie was made here exploring the mythology of the local mountains. It's decent. Not great. But it's also in the local language, and I haven't yet seen subs.
Last year Serbs made a movie about the time when they were controlled by the Turks. Croatian had a theater play I've seen before the rona about Istra stories. Again. Plenty, we just don't export it. I gave my theory as to why. But beyond that, who knows?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Indeed I am
Great! Do you have any throwaway emails or anything so we can talk outside of Ganker, and avoid the whims of needing to make sure that a thread remains up long enough for a reply please?
Oni are another thing that existed in a lot of different cultures so there are loads of different descriptions of them. Some being imported from China while others are a local flavor that came up centuries later. Traditional folklore has them as invisible little monsters that cause problems like knocking over plates and bowls, breaking things and causing disease. Buddhists have them as the main keepers of hell. Other later stories have them as a typical monster one finds out in the wilderness.
The red and blue difference comes from a specific folktale about one being friendly and calm while the other was angry and violent. But they also come in more colors, that one just made the idea popular.
Chinese had them with Ox and Horse heads, sometimes other gods were confused with oni so the qualities of that god were attributed to oni as a whole like the lightning and wind powers. Enma is thought of as an oni, or their king. Raijin and Fujin look like typical oni so their abilities are attributed to oni.
What are some other popular colors besides Red and Blue? Maybe Green?
2 years ago
Anonymous
Just propose to the guy already
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yellow, green, black were some other fairly common colors that oni came in. Most were just described as humans with horns and big mouths so assume that common skin tone was typical.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's a negative. I prefer to do it here. If I give something it feels like Im almost required to answer. And partially due to work and partially due to just not feeling it, I'd rather not.
I’ve skimmed over the thread a bit and while I don’t claim to know more than some of the other anons, I still got some stuff I can offer.
Firstly, Japanese yokai are unique to them insofar as they have become entwined with their cultural identity. Every culture has their own mythology of course, but Japan has Yokai as an academic field you can enter in university, and a small but incredibly motivated cadre of experts who help perpetuate the study and preservation of the buggers.
Second, yokai are not merely “supernatural” or separate from religious pantheons like a lot of European mythology. Others have already pointed it out but yokai are essentially abandoned or forgotten kami. Kami can become yokai and yokai can be restored to kami- the only real difference between the two is wellbeing and consequently their disposition towards people. None of them are gods in our Western monotheistic sense- but could be compared to the concept of patron saints- you give them tribute and in return they might help you in some way regarding their key attribute(s). Again, broad strokes here.
Third, yokai are so abundant and diverse that trying to pigeonhole any of them into one definitive taxonomic collection is flat out impossible and furthermore, antithetical to their appeal. There are a handful of archetypes we can call ever-present: oni, kappa, kitsune, tanuki, tengu, etc, that invariably exist in some slight variation or other across the country and often in an everyday manner . Outside of these, however, yokai become so varied in their origins, locations, customs and “purpose” that they often only share their obscurity as an attribute, and as such cannot be readily quantified as post-Tolkien fey or cryptids.
Also, demons in Japanese mythology are not inherently evil- vicious, yes, but many a demon exists somewhere within Buddhism that, although ultimately unable to break out of Samsara, still serve the cause. (cont.)
>Japan has Yokai as an academic field
Seriously? Damn. Did not know that. We have mythology classes dedicated to our own, but not an entire field.
I would like to ammend two things you said. Yokai aren't just always fallen Kami. They can be but aren't always.
Tengu also aren't always fallen monks. That's the Buddhist side of Japanese mythology. In Shinto and Yamabushi they're just Yokai. And that's in part what makes Japanese mythology interesting. It's not just Shinto. It's Confucian, Buddhist, Taoist, Shinto, Yamabushi, Ryokyuan, and more.
>One of the better resources
What are the other resources?
Books. Scrolls. Japanese tales by Tyler is a good start, or The book of Yokai by Dylan Foster. But any of the Yokai scrolls are your best bet. I'm not sure if any are translated though. Bakemono zukishi is online but not translated.
Does anyone have any suggestions for trying to create new types of Yokai? And what are some existing kinds of Yokai that could be used more often?
It's just creating monsters connected to nature. A lot of nature stuff. Animals, weather, people but spooky. A hairy leg that drops down and demands to be washed, no face, eye for the ass?
Why do they do that? It seems kind of pointless to hurt someone then heal them right afterwards.
It's kinda like a mostly harmless prank.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Seriously? Damn. Did not know that. We have mythology classes dedicated to our own, but not an entire field.
I think the government of Japan unofficially recognizes this stuff, hence why they have exorcisms and rituals, like that one fox demon that escaped a rock a couple of years ago.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Iceland has the same type of thing. One can get a degree in elf and fairy information. And then get a license to do things like appease the elfs before a construction is made in an area etc.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>Everyone knows the local history and lore.
X To Doubt
2 years ago
Anonymous
>t. Amerifat
2 years ago
Anonymous
First - no, second - Americans still use cowboys in their mass media, while Europe for some reason hate own national symbols, you never see the use of historical motifs and symbols at the same level as Japan does. It reaches the point of absurdity when Asians are more obsessed with European culture than Europeans themselves.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>local history and lore >cowboys >moronic projections about "le feeble leftoid Yurope" >while treating it as unified whole, too
Yep, Yanktard confirmed
2 years ago
Anonymous
2 years ago
Anonymous
I dont know about that. I lived in scotland, and thistles and unicorns (national animal) litter the place. People love the local legends like Burke and Hare, William Wallace, Harry Potter and so on. I also routinely see packs of Asian tourists there in the summer, who I imagine treat the experience like an isekai journey.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>cowboys
You barely ever hear about any interesting folk tales from the pioneer days, most of what you can look up is also questionable in authenticity.
2 years ago
Anonymous
The wild west is mythologized plenty, and in it's own days. It's just instead of ' there was a dragon' its 'people were constantly shooting each other'. Texas has looser gun laws today than it did in 1880. Couldn't bring guns into church for instance which isn't the case now. The legendary shootout at the OK Corral was one in which nobody actually got shot and lasted only five minutes. Contrast that with any mass shooting this year.
Also westerns are a tricky genre to tackle these days, because the race politics of the era were completely glossed over in the golden era of westerns. To do so now would be massively disingenuous, but brings with it a lot of uncomfortable baggage. You can do it sure, but it removes the simplicity of 'good guys with guns shooting bad guys with guns'. That said I think westerns get new life if blended with other genres. Westworld was quite popular, as are space-westerns. Probably not dissimilar to how there are more fantasy medieval films than actual medieval films.
2 years ago
Anonymous
To be fair, frick race politics. It's shit when it's human against elves or some other race and it's shit when it's human against human.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Americans also use a lot of pirates. The golden age of piracy mostly took place in and around the Gulf of Mexico. Then they get to add stuff like the Fountain of Youth in Florida somewhere and Blackbeard hanging around South Carolina.
>cowboys
You barely ever hear about any interesting folk tales from the pioneer days, most of what you can look up is also questionable in authenticity.
The wild west is mythologized plenty, and in it's own days. It's just instead of ' there was a dragon' its 'people were constantly shooting each other'. Texas has looser gun laws today than it did in 1880. Couldn't bring guns into church for instance which isn't the case now. The legendary shootout at the OK Corral was one in which nobody actually got shot and lasted only five minutes. Contrast that with any mass shooting this year.
Also westerns are a tricky genre to tackle these days, because the race politics of the era were completely glossed over in the golden era of westerns. To do so now would be massively disingenuous, but brings with it a lot of uncomfortable baggage. You can do it sure, but it removes the simplicity of 'good guys with guns shooting bad guys with guns'. That said I think westerns get new life if blended with other genres. Westworld was quite popular, as are space-westerns. Probably not dissimilar to how there are more fantasy medieval films than actual medieval films.
Modern audiences also do not like the media style wrapped around it either. Westerns usually mean country/western music attached as the soundtrack with some notable Nashville players in the movie. And a lot of people are just not fans of country stuff at all. Before we even get to the much more modern aspect of half the country stars being very outspoken conservative fox News types who love triggering the libs as much as they can. Makes for a bad time with Hollywood types and movie making, much less mas audience appeal.
2 years ago
Anonymous
We need more Tim Nelson and less George Strait
2 years ago
Anonymous
Country music isn't the problem. Just dont use modern country music. Even rednecks all agree modern country sucks because it's all the same whiny song, over and over. Classic western soundtracks like fistful of dollars still kickass. People love the songs used in the red-dead games.
Country died a death of it's own making, similar to metal.
To be fair, frick race politics. It's shit when it's human against elves or some other race and it's shit when it's human against human.
Personally I think it's a fascinating subject when handled earnestly. I love historical civil rights films as an example. But it is a topic that must be handled with care, which is a big ask for some people who just want to make a movie. But you can do it in a western. Blazing Saddles is a fantastic example, as it's a brutal deconstruction of westerns and the race politics of the era by making a black sheriff the center star of the show.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Agreed on the country. Started going to hell when Johnny Cash died and arrived on the early 10s. I'm sure there's a few good ones, but parsing through the amount of same style crap about vehicles, women, beer, women leaving, 4th of July, or how it's good to be a country person and living simply.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Yeah we Americans kinda only want the good stuff while keeping out the shit tier stuff (sl*v shit, Mediterranean shit, etc)
2 years ago
Anonymous
>I know that Kitsune are associated with Inari, are any other Yokai tied to a Kami like that? Or is it just them?
We have Amanozako acting as the ancestral goddess of Tengu and to the lesser degree yomotsu shikome acting as Izanami's servants in the land of the dead.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Thanks for the email address. I sent you a test email, be sure to check it.
I like when they have boobs
What was with the tengu and huge noses? Also, most people would agree with you anon. XD
2 years ago
Anonymous
>What was with the tengu and huge noses?
The pic you're replying to even has prominent wings, yet you can't figure it out?
2 years ago
Anonymous
>What was with the tengu and huge noses?
The pic you're replying to even has prominent wings, yet you can't figure it out?
Tengu are complicated beings, and the nose, or really type, and what it means depends on if you're looking at the Buddhist interpretation or the Shinto interpretation. There's 4 types I'm aware of, technically 5. So let's go down the line.
So the Ko-Tengu, or Karasu-Tengu, are crow humanoids. In Buddhism they were people who were too angry to pass on. In Shinto they're simply their own type of being, often associated with deep forests.
The Dai-Tengu have long noses. In Buddhism these were priests that were so proud they didn't truly reach enlightenment. In Shinto the represent virility. Ya know. The dong. The larger the nose the stronger the Tengu.
The Kawa-Tengu are crane-like Tengu that dwell near streams or rivers ir lakes in the mountains. If I remember correctly they are made from souls that were too depressed and despondent, so they couldn't pass on.
Last are the Konoha-Tengu, which may or may not be their own thing, or just a type of Ko-Tengu. Their really only claim to fame was turning into trees. There's some speculation that they were shyness reincarnated, but there's so little I can find about them.
I'll just give honorable mention to the Hane no Haeta Kappa, which literally means Kappa with wings. It's more of a chicken than a Kappa or Tengu, but it's somewhere between the two types of beings. Considering Kappa actually transform between being it may be the transitional form.
I should probably mention the Shugendo, or Yamabushi, as it's probably better known as. In there Tengu are considered the step above human, and the goal of the syncretic cult (the old meaning of cult, as in, devotion to a specific thing, without the negative association it has today), but not the end goal by itself, as Tengu are Yamabushi themselves. There's obviously more, but I have 2000 characters. If you want to know more, read a book or the Wikipedia article.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>XD
have a nice day.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Oh no, no. It's perfectly fine. That's why we're here, discussing stuff. And it's rare to see someone admit their mistakes, especially here.
isnt okami also a pun as it also means wolf or white wolf in japanese
Correct. It also refers to the Emperor, though that's because he was seen as descended and himself divine.
Japan has a weird thing where they have something like a taxonomy of supernatural entities. Yokai/Monster (Malevolent, often corporeal natural spirits like kappa/kamaitachi), Yosei/Fairy ("bewitching spirits", anything fairylike, nonhuman societies like koropokkuru), Obake/Ghost (malevolent spirits of departed souls like yuki-onna, possibly akamanto), Kami/Gods (These range from tiny nature spirits like the kodama, spirits within leaves, to the active pantheon including Amaterasu, with influence and power based on how venerated they are; i.e. minor gods associated with local temples).
Well, it's also not that clear cut. Something I learned very recently, Kappa and all the subtypes (like Grappa, Kawa Otoko, Enko, and others) actually transform into land dwelling Yokai/Yosei (like Takiwaro, Shibaten, Yamawaro, and others). Not to mention degrading of Kami and rising of Yokai.
The taxonomy came in the Edo Period up until 1999, so pretty recently, in a number of scrolls that collected the Yokai and classified them. It's not exactly old mythology, but I always say, any version of a myth is equally valid.
Though Yokai and Obake aren't always malevolent. Tengu are Yokai (when they're not minor Kami) but can be benevolent. Ryuu (when they aren't Kami) and certain types of Kitsune (white Kitsune fkr example, when they aren't Kami or work for Inari Okami) are always benevolent. Others are just there to trick or scare you for the lulz. The Betobetosan just follows your footsteps, the one Obake that just gives you goosebumps. Mean, but not malevolent. Oh, and the guardian Obake that are sometimes but not always also minor Kami.
When someone says capital in this way they are usually differentiating between a higher concept and a lower particular (as in, the Nature of everything, of the meaning of existance, vs nature, as in biology), rather than necissarily the particularities of english typology and grammer.
Its simply an expedient way to distingush this dynamic since its a very popular way to differentiate the two in english. the typologoical convention is describing a more broadly applicable idea not necissarily constrained to a particular language.
One, I'm not giving you my info on the net. Especially not on Ganker. I post when I have time and a myth needs explaining to clarifying. And even then it's 2000 characters. Not exactly in depth.
Two, it makes perfect sense in Japanese. As anon above said, consider the word spirit. It can mean willpower or soul or ghost. Translating things is always imperfect. Especially when it comes from logographic languages such as Japanese. It may read the same, but the written word changes the meaning.
And three, misconceptions. I mean outside of what I mentioned above, not a lot. It's mythology. Myth has many, many variations. Anything could at one point have been true. As long as it folds generally into the base myth.
I guess maybe one that I constantly see is about Oni. Often they're portrayed or translated as Demons or evil Ogres. They are not. I talked about this before here, but Oni come in three kinds. The first are punishers in Hell. These are the youngest, added when Shinto was mixing with Buddhism. They're also usually good working under Enma/Yama. More like Angels guarding Hell than Demons. The second are people turned unit Oni due to bad deeds. These include Hannya, which are further divided into three. It's a lot. Not gonna go super into it. The third are a subtype of the second and children of Yamata-no-Orochi, like Shuten-Doji. Also Mezu(ki) and Gozu(ki) are not usually seen as Oni. They're their own class of being. But, again, version.
Oh, and Tengu as Goblins (I mean... Really?) or linked with the Chinese Tiangou (the name is borrowed but the creature itself is completely different). Tengu are complex and have a long history of changes based on time, region, and even specific Tengu themselves. They were neutral, tricksters, always evil, helpful... The translation bothers me is my point.
But yea, beyond minor details of the myth itself, no, not a lot outright misconceptions I've seen. Versions exist after all.
Japanese is just a different language and culture. The word Kami would be used to apply to the Abrahamic God, Zeus, the demigod Hercules, to something like a water nymph. While Japanese Kami are all of a similar kind and all have specific domains, the difference in power levels and significance varies a lot.
Another mistranslation would be Oni being translated as demon. Ogre is better, while Oni are all very strong and dangerous, they are more chaotic than evil, and can be reasoned with (even if they aren't particularly evil). They are kind of the opposite if a Christian demon, more chaotic neutral than lawful evil.
What was up with most Oni being Blue or Red Myth Anon? Why make them those colors, and why not other ones? Also, do you have a throwaway email like that other anon does so we can talk without being at Ganker’s mercy?
Does that differ at all between the male and female Oni? Also, I don’t really consider demons as a really “lawful” bunch, why do you say that?
Oni are another thing that existed in a lot of different cultures so there are loads of different descriptions of them. Some being imported from China while others are a local flavor that came up centuries later. Traditional folklore has them as invisible little monsters that cause problems like knocking over plates and bowls, breaking things and causing disease. Buddhists have them as the main keepers of hell. Other later stories have them as a typical monster one finds out in the wilderness.
The red and blue difference comes from a specific folktale about one being friendly and calm while the other was angry and violent. But they also come in more colors, that one just made the idea popular.
Chinese had them with Ox and Horse heads, sometimes other gods were confused with oni so the qualities of that god were attributed to oni as a whole like the lightning and wind powers. Enma is thought of as an oni, or their king. Raijin and Fujin look like typical oni so their abilities are attributed to oni.
Demons in abrahamic Faith's must work with a framework of an all powerful god. Ergo demons can't outright kill you or steal your soul, you must consent to selling your soul. The most famous example is Dr. Faust. But if they break the rules of the contract the hold on your soul is null and void. Hence they may be buttholes but are bound to certain rules.
Female oni are traditionally feminine (so no muscle bound amazons unfortunately), but retain the horns, tiger pelts, and skin colors of oni alongside their love of booze and monstrous strength (and so are still dangerous of you piss them off), as fir red and blue oni, they come in many colors, but red and blue are common due to a famous story of a red and blue oni, who are of opposite temperaments, and are both best friends and bitter rivals. You ever watch an anime with a rival dynamic, its that.
In Chinese they pretty much outright claim that there is hardly a difference between a god and a yaoguai at all as far as creatures go. There is no clear species classification or physical difference between them. They are the same classification of spiritual creature that is greater than a human or animal with varying powers that humans lack.
Mostly a god has a job as appointed by the celestial court and is ordered to control a lake, river, mountain etc. While a yaoguai is more of a wandering monster that takes up residence in a wild area and eats people until a hero or god kills it or gives it a job. Often they convert to Buddhism and becomes a guardian of that area and helps people from that point on. Other times they are caught and punished by the Celestial bureaucracy and forced to work a shittier job like be the god of a bathroom or swamp for a few thousand years.
Japan has a weird thing where they have something like a taxonomy of supernatural entities. Yokai/Monster (Malevolent, often corporeal natural spirits like kappa/kamaitachi), Yosei/Fairy ("bewitching spirits", anything fairylike, nonhuman societies like koropokkuru), Obake/Ghost (malevolent spirits of departed souls like yuki-onna, possibly akamanto), Kami/Gods (These range from tiny nature spirits like the kodama, spirits within leaves, to the active pantheon including Amaterasu, with influence and power based on how venerated they are; i.e. minor gods associated with local temples).
Oh no, no. It's perfectly fine. That's why we're here, discussing stuff. And it's rare to see someone admit their mistakes, especially here.
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Correct. It also refers to the Emperor, though that's because he was seen as descended and himself divine.
[...]
Well, it's also not that clear cut. Something I learned very recently, Kappa and all the subtypes (like Grappa, Kawa Otoko, Enko, and others) actually transform into land dwelling Yokai/Yosei (like Takiwaro, Shibaten, Yamawaro, and others). Not to mention degrading of Kami and rising of Yokai.
The taxonomy came in the Edo Period up until 1999, so pretty recently, in a number of scrolls that collected the Yokai and classified them. It's not exactly old mythology, but I always say, any version of a myth is equally valid.
Though Yokai and Obake aren't always malevolent. Tengu are Yokai (when they're not minor Kami) but can be benevolent. Ryuu (when they aren't Kami) and certain types of Kitsune (white Kitsune fkr example, when they aren't Kami or work for Inari Okami) are always benevolent. Others are just there to trick or scare you for the lulz. The Betobetosan just follows your footsteps, the one Obake that just gives you goosebumps. Mean, but not malevolent. Oh, and the guardian Obake that are sometimes but not always also minor Kami.
[...]
Tengu are complicated beings, and the nose, or really type, and what it means depends on if you're looking at the Buddhist interpretation or the Shinto interpretation. There's 4 types I'm aware of, technically 5. So let's go down the line.
So the Ko-Tengu, or Karasu-Tengu, are crow humanoids. In Buddhism they were people who were too angry to pass on. In Shinto they're simply their own type of being, often associated with deep forests.
The Dai-Tengu have long noses. In Buddhism these were priests that were so proud they didn't truly reach enlightenment. In Shinto the represent virility. Ya know. The dong. The larger the nose the stronger the Tengu.
The Kawa-Tengu are crane-like Tengu that dwell near streams or rivers ir lakes in the mountains. If I remember correctly they are made from souls that were too depressed and despondent, so they couldn't pass on.
Last are the Konoha-Tengu, which may or may not be their own thing, or just a type of Ko-Tengu. Their really only claim to fame was turning into trees. There's some speculation that they were shyness reincarnated, but there's so little I can find about them.
I'll just give honorable mention to the Hane no Haeta Kappa, which literally means Kappa with wings. It's more of a chicken than a Kappa or Tengu, but it's somewhere between the two types of beings. Considering Kappa actually transform between being it may be the transitional form.
I should probably mention the Shugendo, or Yamabushi, as it's probably better known as. In there Tengu are considered the step above human, and the goal of the syncretic cult (the old meaning of cult, as in, devotion to a specific thing, without the negative association it has today), but not the end goal by itself, as Tengu are Yamabushi themselves. There's obviously more, but I have 2000 characters. If you want to know more, read a book or the Wikipedia article.
That's mostly due to the folklore coming from a few hundred to thousand different villages that had little communication with each other so each one had their own term, their own version of things like the Tengu and how they work, and sometimes with wildly different descriptions of what they are etc. Sometimes the differences in a creature is just a regional story being slightly different from another.
One town says they are huge red faced gods, another says they are little crow people, another says they look like old monks, another says they are more like dogs, another claims they are little people ....it just goes on like that.
they are all based on animals, regular household items and corrupted demons from the other world than gained a new form or a personality after 100 years of service. here are some of them, you can google the names.
Funna Yurei
Genbu
Kappa
Umi-Bozu
Amikiri
Baku
Biwa-bokuboku
Burabura
Byakko
Dai Tengu
Gashadokuro
Hanzaki
Hi Hi
Hyakume
Itsumade
Jiang Shi
Jinmenju
Jorogumo
Jubokko
Kamaitachi
Karasu Tengu
Kasa-Obake
Kirin
Kodama
Komainu
Kyubi / Kitsune
Mokumokuren
Nekomata
Nue
Nurikabe
Ohaguro Bettari
Oiwa
Omukade
Oni – Rot und Blau
Rokurokubi
Seiryu
Suzaku
Tanuki
Teke Teke
Tsuchinoko
Tsurube Otoshi
Ushi Oni
Wanyudo
Yuki-Onna
Nothing. There really aren't a lot of broad monster categories which are totally unique, because any category as vague as 'fairy' or 'yokai' is going to have a huge amount of crossover with similar ones, given the fairly universal nature of monster mythology. Virtually any yokai would work fine as a European fairy and vice-versa. Exceptions would be things which are very tied to an animist world-view, such as the spirits of objects, but there are a lot of animist cultures with similar beings.
In general, don't worry about trying to make monsters (or anything else) original or unique, and concentrate on doing them well.
Well, Tsukumogami (objects that come to life after 1000 years for those unfamiliar with them) are a pretty cool concept in my book. How come there's no real equivalent of them in cultures beyond Japan itself? And has anyone seen any cool takes on the concept?
>How come there's no real equivalent of them in cultures beyond Japan itself?
Intelligent/animate artifacts are a thing elsewhere, as are objects that acquire magical properties through "experience".
Japanese attitudes toward permanence and craft are pretty important to how tzukumogami work, too. A hundred year old paper lantern or umbrella is both totally unnatural and a glorious achievement by its creator, a tension reflected in the ambivalence of attaining sentience as an absurd faerie.
>Intelligent/animate artifacts are a thing elsewhere, as are objects that acquire magical properties through "experience".
Can you please give some specific examples of this kind of phenomenon? And what’s the deal with the ambivalence?
honestly don't know any, closest I can think is golems from qabala, and those are intentionally animated by a practitioner, not awakened on their own. Shinto really has some interesting unique concepts.
Also apologies for any confusion, I'm assuming you're looking for mythanon, I was just giving him a suggestion for opening external contact, but if you wanna talk mythology more i'm at [email protected]
I think China has an equivalent, just not as widespread. The idea is that any animal or object that spends a hundred years in prayer or meditating can attain magic through enlightenment, which comes from china. Same rule applies to kitsune, which are normal foxes who gain an additional tail for every hundred years of enlightenment and has equivalents in china and Korea (in China they are more likely to marry you, in Korea they are more likely to eat you and in Japan its 50/50)
>How come there's no real equivalent of them in cultures beyond Japan itself?
There is, just not the anthropomorphism. Even now people will swear by weapons that have tasted blood almost a hundred years ago from the World Wars as if it just "feels right" in their hands, or they get this feeling of energy flowing through them as they somehow just do better with it. Or dare to say that it is basically giving them nosebleeds just touching the thing as its cold to the touch or feel a strong desire to hurt people.
One of the most famous monsters in japanese lore is the Orochi, an 8-headed dragon serpent slain by the god of storms. So giant kaiju monsters are a part of the mythos.
I forget their names but one manga I read had giants who live in the mountains of japan that were the beings who physically created the islands. Supposedly they are all asleep but when they turn over in their sleep is why earthquakes happen.
Also I reccomend Youkai Shoujo it's a trash harem manga that turns into a kino battle manga about youkai in akihabara.
Technically nothing, many countries have had similar stories of monsters but Japan was better about recording theirs because of a historically far higher literacy rate.
I personally sort of think of Yokai as a Japanese version of the Fey. Weird, chaotic, sometimes friendly, sometimes hostile, but ultimately fundemental to the underlying metaphysical function of reality or a byproduct of it.
Japan has a weird thing where they have something like a taxonomy of supernatural entities. Yokai/Monster (Malevolent, often corporeal natural spirits like kappa/kamaitachi), Yosei/Fairy ("bewitching spirits", anything fairylike, nonhuman societies like koropokkuru), Obake/Ghost (malevolent spirits of departed souls like yuki-onna, possibly akamanto), Kami/Gods (These range from tiny nature spirits like the kodama, spirits within leaves, to the active pantheon including Amaterasu, with influence and power based on how venerated they are; i.e. minor gods associated with local temples).
Well, what are some parallels among the Fae and Yokai that you’re aware of? Like, I’m pretty sure that there are European fox spirits, akin to Kitsune in Japan, but that’s the limit of my knowledge, sadly.
Most common is that they are in the same position as an in between living and spirit type of creature that is usually invisible. Often they are described as a spirit of someone or something that used to live there before and it resulted in the ghost becoming that creature or spawning it in some way. They haunt old abandoned places, or are a spirit of a lake or hill. They love to curse random people the come across and are always best left alone. Priests are often brought in to force an unruly one away for villagers etc.
Yokai are monsters in more old school folkloristic sense. The word means a bewitching spectre and applies to any strange creature. The reason yokai are different from the typical western monsters is that they are the weirdness fresh from the folklore instead of the narrow canon of creatures filtered by years of literary conventions born from the modern drive to get rid of "silly" or "illogical" creatures and to put the rest in the concrete system of taxonomy.
Instead of "goblinoids" you get a whole bunch of monsters whose only similarity is looking vaguely like a buddist monk. Even more classified variants tsukumogami (objects that gained spirit and came to life) are still varied, often being essentially living allegories or warnings.
To wrap it up, yokai are monsters, if you took the whole bestiary without crossing out/rationalysing most of the historical weirdness.
>To wrap it up, yokai are monsters, if you took the whole bestiary without crossing out/rationalysing most of the historical weirdness.
Pretty much. Yokai are a broad categorization and Japanese catch all term for weird, monstrous and supernatural entities that are not widely worshiped as divinities.
They are the sorts of creatures that the Irish/Scottish would call sidhe/sith and the English would call fairies, be the "fearsome critters" of North American tall tales and logging folklore, the Jersey Devils and Mothmen of modern urban legends, etc.
[...]
Tengu are complicated beings, and the nose, or really type, and what it means depends on if you're looking at the Buddhist interpretation or the Shinto interpretation. There's 4 types I'm aware of, technically 5. So let's go down the line.
So the Ko-Tengu, or Karasu-Tengu, are crow humanoids. In Buddhism they were people who were too angry to pass on. In Shinto they're simply their own type of being, often associated with deep forests.
The Dai-Tengu have long noses. In Buddhism these were priests that were so proud they didn't truly reach enlightenment. In Shinto the represent virility. Ya know. The dong. The larger the nose the stronger the Tengu.
The Kawa-Tengu are crane-like Tengu that dwell near streams or rivers ir lakes in the mountains. If I remember correctly they are made from souls that were too depressed and despondent, so they couldn't pass on.
Last are the Konoha-Tengu, which may or may not be their own thing, or just a type of Ko-Tengu. Their really only claim to fame was turning into trees. There's some speculation that they were shyness reincarnated, but there's so little I can find about them.
I'll just give honorable mention to the Hane no Haeta Kappa, which literally means Kappa with wings. It's more of a chicken than a Kappa or Tengu, but it's somewhere between the two types of beings. Considering Kappa actually transform between being it may be the transitional form.
I should probably mention the Shugendo, or Yamabushi, as it's probably better known as. In there Tengu are considered the step above human, and the goal of the syncretic cult (the old meaning of cult, as in, devotion to a specific thing, without the negative association it has today), but not the end goal by itself, as Tengu are Yamabushi themselves. There's obviously more, but I have 2000 characters. If you want to know more, read a book or the Wikipedia article.
Thanks for explaining Myth Anon. That IS you, right?
Everything that you want to know about japanase yokai is right here
https://yokai.com/
One of the better resources.
One of the most famous monsters in japanese lore is the Orochi, an 8-headed dragon serpent slain by the god of storms. So giant kaiju monsters are a part of the mythos.
I forget their names but one manga I read had giants who live in the mountains of japan that were the beings who physically created the islands. Supposedly they are all asleep but when they turn over in their sleep is why earthquakes happen.
Also I reccomend Youkai Shoujo it's a trash harem manga that turns into a kino battle manga about youkai in akihabara.
Orochi wanted to become a Kami, and was also a sorcerer. That's why he ate (and hsd kids) with Earth Kami.
Speaking of which, yea. I guess I should add Kami csn be divided into heavenly Kami (Amaterasu) and earth Kami (Futsunushi would be an example, or Sukunabikona).
You're thinking Daidarabotchi. There's only one. He didn't MAKE the islands, he shaped them. He weighed two mountains, his footsteps make the lakes.
Japanese is just a different language and culture. The word Kami would be used to apply to the Abrahamic God, Zeus, the demigod Hercules, to something like a water nymph. While Japanese Kami are all of a similar kind and all have specific domains, the difference in power levels and significance varies a lot.
Another mistranslation would be Oni being translated as demon. Ogre is better, while Oni are all very strong and dangerous, they are more chaotic than evil, and can be reasoned with (even if they aren't particularly evil). They are kind of the opposite if a Christian demon, more chaotic neutral than lawful evil.
Demigods? Yea actually. The emperor is considered just a descendant, and is still referred to as Okami so yes. And the Anrahamic omnipotent God is Kami-sama or Okami-sama.
I did mention the Ono stuff above. They're not always evil nor chaotic, and there are various kinds of Oni. Those that follow Enma are pretty lawful. Punishers of evil, but in a very specific capacity. Then there's the people turned Oni, which are always evil, but not always chaotic, since you need to commit something horrible to turn into one. Though the children of Orochi who turned into Oni would definitely fall under NE or CE. Evil for the sake of evil or evil for their own benefit. Born Oni range between CE and the Evil alignments.
I assume because Japan has spent more time exporting their culture than China. China is still playing catchup on the global media front, they are making a few inroads, but as fits the stereotype, they are mostly copies of stuff others have done. Plus I think the nature of authoritarian regimes and the lack of freedom of expression limits a cultures cultural exports (if you aren't free to put out a movie that says 'frick the government' then it's more limited than a movie that can)
NTA but yes. Japan is hyper focused on society.
As for Yokai, it could go either way. A lot of them oppose this social structure, but could be conforming as well and have commentary on that. If you're designing your own and/or changing details about existing ones.
The way I would describe it is Japan is a culture of doormats that will make you a paraiah for not being a doormat yourself. Ancient chinese proverb but it's relevant- the nail that sticks out is hammered down.
Now many are aware of this, this attitude is responsible for Japan's toxic work culture which plenty of anime have critiqued. But it's one of the problems in the culture.
Basically they never really dropped the old feudalism system. It's still peasants working their entire lives away for the local noble. Except now they call it salarymen working for the company owner. But it's the same shit with the same total lack of freedom of movement and locked in for life to the lord system.
2 years ago
Anonymous
That's not really true. Sure you could say there's similarities, but there isn't continuity like that.
A big break for instance was the American occupation, and I don't mean that in just 'there are americans now'. Japan has what are called Zaibatsu, which we would call Oligolipies. Now in the imperial era, these were state-backed monopolies similar to say Fiat in Italy and Volkswagon in Germany. In the US (ironically) the Zaibatsu were seen as throttling competition (correct) and impeding economic growth (correct) and were split up. This helped allow for Japan's post-war miracle by a fair margin.
The Zaibatsu are back today however, because the Japanese Diet voted to repeal the reforms made during the occupation, allowing them to come back basically as they were (minus the fascist big-brother element). This can also be linked to the stagnation of Japan's economy.
But the point being that the current state of Japan's work culture is not set in stone. It has changed in the past, and could change in the future.
Well also they had about a century of the government downplaying and outlawing most major cultural beliefs, with a lot of them just dying out and being forgotten. While Japan spent the exact same period of history writing down and codifying their old cultural beliefs into context for modern audiences and making lots of media that keeps it all alive. Japanese government has been very interested in maintaining and recording their cultural history from any little village they can find and keeping it alive. While China spent the 40s through 90s trying to eradicate old cultural beliefs and force villagers to modernize.
China is likely copying a lot because they simply do not have a lot of their own cultural history recorded any longer and have to fill the gaps. It's definitely not well known in most areas that had a strict government clamp down on old superstitious beliefs and folk religions. Plus they are definitely playing decades late catchup in global media. since they exported very little until fairly recently, like the last 20 years at the most.
Japan is pretty culturally dictatorial though. You HAVE to do the socially agreed upon right thing or you get it.
That's just how Japan works out. Lots and lots of things require an agreed upon cultural group approval before anyone can touch it. Try looking into the fricking nightmare that is architecture and preservation over there.
Why aren't aglæca more popular? English just took the word. It's literally just a word for monster. The myths themselves are different. Same for Tengu and Tiengau. The latter is a literal dog. Now yes, there are some Yokai that are originally Chinese (Kitsune for example), but a lot, maybe even the majority, are original.
I don't know what I hate more - weebs or the fact that Japan deserved to have them with its hard work, while Europeans do jack shit to preserve their own culture.
Europe as a whole barely makes any media approaching the level of Japan in a year. Japan just churns out way more comics, games, movies, and series that deal with their local folklore to the point where it's really well known world wide. No one in europe really bothers in the same way, nor to they have any kind of similar media empire to publish it and make it mainstream in the first place. It sucks.
France and Belgium have the second largest comic book market after Japan, they also have a fairly healthy animation market, but for some reason there are no fresh ideas in Europe, everything I have seen from Europe can be summed up in a simple description - an absolutely visual masterpiece with absolutely banal plot.
They are stuck with the same problem as the US. Only ever publishing the same old shit that they always have published since the 60s-70s while never ever letting anything new come along or last.
That's Lou and her cat. It's a bédé about Lou and her single mother and ornery grand mother. It's far better then it has any right to be. I put it in Spoiler because this is a yokai thread, not a Ganker thread.
My point is that France, Spain, Italy, Germany and so on put out far more comics, books and films then you'd know if you just waited for translations to appear in the USA.
Who's Zeus again? Or Mars? Or, wait. What's the name of that one Marvel hero? Can't be Thor, can it? Oh, and Baba Yaga isn't well known at all. How about Imps? Or elemental spirits? Dwarves? Elves? Faeries? European myth is everywhere. You just don't notice it because you're so used to seeing it.
>European myth is everywhere.
Not in my "western anime". Oh wait, we don't even have an analogue of anime and hundreds of weebs believe that katana and Japanese national motifs are the best in the world. And I can't blame them, West has nothing to offer except boring and banal superhero movies.
Meme. And the worst thing is that a completely false meme, in reality katana is heavier than European swords, has a worse quality of metal (the characteristic of local ores in Japan physically do not allow you to make high-quality steel) and was created for primitive hacking instead of skilful swordsmanship, European swords are superior to katana in all aspects, but do not have such PR machine as katana have.
Meme. And the worst thing is that a completely false meme, in reality katana is heavier than European swords, has a worse quality of metal (the characteristic of local ores in Japan physically do not allow you to make high-quality steel) and was created for primitive hacking instead of skilful swordsmanship, European swords are superior to katana in all aspects, but do not have such PR machine as katana have.
They were fine for their time and place. But agreed, they're not nearly as good as European swords. Though for hacking? Hardly. Katanas couldn't withstand that sort of butchery. They're soft. They'd bend or break. They often did. There is martial arts behind them. Not better than European sword martial arts. Just different. I'd still bet on the European just because sword quality. One hit against a zweihander, a backsword, or a longsword and the katana is gone. Or God forbid against a sword breaker. The only sword that wouldn't break it is a rapier or an epee, maybe a saber, depending. But then, the former two are all about quick jabs in duels and defending yourself in a post armor period anyways, so they wouldn't really be useful in that scenario.
The problem is how katana and samurai are depicted in anime, movies and TTRPGs, the myth that katana is an elegant weapon of real swordsmen is stupid, but katana has a whole country that promotes this thing, meanwhile Europe treats its own past with disdain. And I cannot understand what is wrong with Europe and why people do not want to change anything.
2 years ago
Anonymous
Oh absolutely. The myth of the katana is, well, a myth. As an European, I can tell you it's not really disdain. Quite the opposite. We preserve it, the old buildings, the books, scrolls. We just don't export it. I can't speak for everyone, but at least here, we kinda accept that the past and our myths isn't something to be commercialized and exploited by an individual author or even the country. It's something to accept if it's bad, sometimes be proud of if it's good, and definitely learn from. But selling it just isn't something we do here. Again, can't speak for everyone, just my tiny country here in Central Europe.
I think, in part, that's why I don't really get Japan and China and the US with their exportation of culture and watering it down for consumption.
It's mostly a meme. They're pretty decent swords, pretty sharp, but not really all that better or worse than medieval european swords other than being slightly more resistant to chipping (Japan being metal poor needed to conserve their swords). What happened though is the Katana became the symbol of office for the Samurai in the Tokugawa shogunate while everyone else was banned from owning swords, so it got wrapped up in the Japanese mythos. That and after the invention of guns, for whatever reason european swordsmiths tried to reinvent the wheel and generational knowledge on medieval swordsmithing was lost, so during the age of discovery, european swords were notoriously shit and brittle, to the point that conquistadors were finding that the obsidian machetes of the people they were conquering were better than the swords they were getting. This cemented in european culture the idea that old sworsd are inherently superior, alongside a fascination with the weapons of 'culturally inferior' people as being more pure and in that ancient mold. So it's a combination of european myth-making and japanese myth-making.
The problem is how katana and samurai are depicted in anime, movies and TTRPGs, the myth that katana is an elegant weapon of real swordsmen is stupid, but katana has a whole country that promotes this thing, meanwhile Europe treats its own past with disdain. And I cannot understand what is wrong with Europe and why people do not want to change anything.
I grew up in Scotland. Don't know what you mean, they love their local history. If anything the English accuse the Scots of liking it too much, since a lot of it is about killing the English (also reminder, the British national anthem still has a line about 'murderous Scots' and how we need to kill them all to defend the queen. The Scots keep asking for them to change that line and the English keep telling them no.)
Answer me the question, what is more often chosen by Scottish teenagers as a weapon of their characters - katana or claymore?
2 years ago
Anonymous
*shrug*
Last time I went to the games-workshop store on the Royal Mile there was a lot of Lord of the Rings stuff and a lot of WH40K stuff. Both british intellectual properties. Me and my sister painted a couple of elf-figurines. We did a short skirmish where she used chaos marines.
Don't really know, I've never been to ireland other than a quick stop in the airport. I do know they like fricking over the English as much as they can just like the Scots do. A big part of their identity is being Catholic though, as most of the rest of the isles are some form of protestant, which means they are a good deal to the right of Scotland on a number of issues. But you know, they tout the castles and the tourist circuit just like the rest of the isles, they like hyping up the celtic culture and all that. I do know that Irish Gaelic has seen a resurgence of use on the Internet where it had been a language on the verge of extinction. Kinda the difference between Ireland and Scotland is while Scotland had a lot of vicious infighting in it's history, it was mostly a unified kingdom that could afford throughout it's history to stave off English aggression (what finally brought them down was massive debt from a failed colonial venture in Panama, and this was while England was already under a personal union with the Scottish King). Meanwhile Ireland was filled with a bunch of independant minor nobles who never managed to unify the island against the English and so were gobbled up piecemeal. So no Irish version of Braveheart far as I know.
More like the rapier, a really good walking around town self defense weapon. Best used against unarmored opponents. Not so much a war weapon to be used in open battle against guys with better weapons and armor. it has about all the utility of a machete, which is a great self defense item against street thugs and thieves, not so handy against armored opponents in war.
Which is where 99% of the whole mystique comes from anyway. Most of their history is during peacetime when Samurai had little to do since the wars were long over and they only really used the swords against unarmored guys in the streets of towns. Also this was the time period of idle samurai having little else to do but write books, make poetry, and form up schools that also led to the whole katana mythology in the general public.
I know they're not really yokai but any thoughts on koropokuru?
The original oriental adventures splat used them as a playable race but they were more like reskinned dwarves than anything to do with actual koropokuru.
I’ve skimmed over the thread a bit and while I don’t claim to know more than some of the other anons, I still got some stuff I can offer.
Firstly, Japanese yokai are unique to them insofar as they have become entwined with their cultural identity. Every culture has their own mythology of course, but Japan has Yokai as an academic field you can enter in university, and a small but incredibly motivated cadre of experts who help perpetuate the study and preservation of the buggers.
Second, yokai are not merely “supernatural” or separate from religious pantheons like a lot of European mythology. Others have already pointed it out but yokai are essentially abandoned or forgotten kami. Kami can become yokai and yokai can be restored to kami- the only real difference between the two is wellbeing and consequently their disposition towards people. None of them are gods in our Western monotheistic sense- but could be compared to the concept of patron saints- you give them tribute and in return they might help you in some way regarding their key attribute(s). Again, broad strokes here.
Third, yokai are so abundant and diverse that trying to pigeonhole any of them into one definitive taxonomic collection is flat out impossible and furthermore, antithetical to their appeal. There are a handful of archetypes we can call ever-present: oni, kappa, kitsune, tanuki, tengu, etc, that invariably exist in some slight variation or other across the country and often in an everyday manner . Outside of these, however, yokai become so varied in their origins, locations, customs and “purpose” that they often only share their obscurity as an attribute, and as such cannot be readily quantified as post-Tolkien fey or cryptids.
Also, demons in Japanese mythology are not inherently evil- vicious, yes, but many a demon exists somewhere within Buddhism that, although ultimately unable to break out of Samsara, still serve the cause. (cont.)
For example, Tengu and most of their variants are almost always fallen Buddhist monks that although usually self-serving, may be moved to aid a traveler or monk who has displayed exceptional virtue.
Ashura also appear throughout Buddhism, having been a carryover from the religion’s origins in India. Ashura are mighty and terrifying, but ultimately serve as tragic figures- they experience passion and emotion in an elevated way none of us could understand, and while this means they are both capable of extreme acts of nobility and vengefulness alike, their incredible power and passion means they can never achieve nirvana and are fated to experience suffering in an equally extreme manner forever.
Demons also appear in Kabuki with the iconic mask not inherently as villains, but ruthless figures of incredible wisdom, cunning and insight into otherworldly plots. They are not necessarily evil, but in being much higher up the cosmic food chain than you or I, probably don’t have our best interests in mind when they decide to involve themselves in worldly affairs.
And I’m about gassed on the subject. Most of my knowledge comes from reading The Book of Yokai by Michael Dylan Foster back in December so feel free to pick me apart if it turns out I’m just parroting a hack.
Why ARE we so fascinated with it? What’s so special for us about Japanese folklore that we’re so obsessed with it? Is it just anime and manga or something else?
I think its just the eroticism, combined with Japanese history being more analogous to western history (with the feudalism). Japan has a similar obsession with fantasy Europe if you havent noticed, though they dont seem too interested in the scholarly aspect.
Agreed on the country. Started going to hell when Johnny Cash died and arrived on the early 10s. I'm sure there's a few good ones, but parsing through the amount of same style crap about vehicles, women, beer, women leaving, 4th of July, or how it's good to be a country person and living simply.
I think it's just country people want to stew in misery. I mean yeah, the country has been left behind with the advent of the service economy, but still theres other stuff to sing about. I mean good example, little nas x managed to get a top of the charts country song out, all he had to do was just put some fricking energy into it.
It would be the case if they've imported it wholecloth and then also did nothing with it, too, preserving it in original form. First didn't happen and second also didn't happen. It's akin of insisting everyone speaks Latin in Europe, because they've borrowed Latin alphabet.
Forgot to elaborate further, I mean the basic concept of the myth. Nip just change or add their own flavor to it. So it's akin like "Made in China, Modified by Japan'
For reference to say japan just copied china is like saying England just copies France, the two have similar cultures because they are neighbors and have influenced each other over centuries.
Now buddhism and its influences were imported from India into china and then into japan for one. Most of China classical works made their way to japan too, hence all the journey to the west references in dragonball.
A big parallel I see though is how enlightenment=magic. The idea that someone can attain so much enlightenment that it appears as magic to us uninformed. This applies to humans with wuxia wizards and samurai who can cut through mountains they are just that good with swords. But also the idea that animals or household objects can achieve magic powers if they live to a hundred, a hundred years attaining enlightenment through prayer or life experience.
1. They are Japanese as opposed to regular Tolkien fantasy
2. They are invisible, so you can include a Mcguffin in your campaign that can reveal them
3. They aren't actively dangerous to humans and prefer to just annoy them
There are some interesting elemental ones. Kamaitaichi are a throuple of ferrets with wind powers that will alternatively cut you up, see you up, and heal you up. There is also a type of lightning dog creature, you've likely seen the motif a lot in anime.
If you wanted to come with a new one imagine an animal that could be found in japan, that lives to a hundred and reaches enlightenment growing an extra tail. Also a lot of youkai are spooky women. Sadako from the Ring is an archetype. A women (though sometimes a man) gets some massive grievance done upon her (in Sadako's case drowned in a well by buttholes) and their ghost gets a murder grudge on the world. Usually the actual perpetrators get off Scott free and theirs no solution to deal with them other than hope they dont notice you. A more recent example is a local legend of a woman getting cut in half after being run over by a train. She survived long enough to find one of the train attendants crawling to them, but the guy freaked the frick out running to the hills and left her to die, so her ghost now haunts the railway. Another recent spooky lady is Hashuku Sama, who is an 8-foot tall pale woman that might have sex with you.
I assume the idea is if you find one and it sees you it gets spooked and attacks, but doesn't want to hurt you do patches you up. Alternatively the three ferrets have different personalities.
The main thing I see is how Japanese writers can manage to keep their folklore mostly intact and add them to stories without too much trouble.
Western shit is too damn codified to Tolkien inspired DnD stuff and hardly ever breaks from that mold ever. Elves almost never get to be their folklore variant of small invisible people. Goblins never get to be invisible little troublemakers that steal food and children. Dwarves are never the soot covered guys that turn to stone in sunlight. And species that never appeared in a Tolkien book never get to be used ever.
That's an outsider's perspective anon. Explain to me how it's less of a perversion where a teacup tsukogami is portrayed as a busty blonde English maid.
Himamari something. It rhymed with a japanese word for talisman.
Besides Yuki-Onna and maybe Kitsune, what are some particularly interesting kinds of Yokai with elemental aspects? I believe that someone mentioned wind weasels, for example.
Theres this lightning dog creature. It's not a specific animal, but closest to a dog, you'll have seen versions of it crop up in anime. I think Tengu also have some wind powers. Also like in china, dragons are associated with water rather than fire
Mythanon here again.
Raiju? A... Kinda sorta familiar/pet of Raijin that burrows into your bellybutton during storms. It's usually shown as a dog or wolf, but is really more like a... Chimera type creature.
Tengu do have fans that make winds.
The Japanese Ryuu are also associated with water and rain, but Dragons are far less important in Japan than in China where they were the symbol of the Emperor. I mean the four Ao brothers that controlled the four seas arw basically gods in their own right. Long Mu I think was her name? The mother of Dragons. Her myth is basically Daenerys' story. Found a stone, turns out it's an egg, enter Dragons. After that it's a bit different. No conquest, just a shit ton of good done for the people. Oh, also carp jumping waterfalls to become Dragons where in Japan it's koi.
There is one Dragon type in Japan that's basically a seashell that turns into a Dragon when it's old enough. It's in the yokai page. Shussebora. Had to find it.
Because that is not the standard requirement that everyone in all media across the board must follow with someone genuinely making a standard folklore version as a total outsider that hardly anyone in the audience would know what they are looking at.
Because she was the spirit of a tea cup originally *from* England.
Himamari something. It rhymed with a japanese word for talisman.
[...]
Theres this lightning dog creature. It's not a specific animal, but closest to a dog, you'll have seen versions of it crop up in anime. I think Tengu also have some wind powers. Also like in china, dragons are associated with water rather than fire
It KINDA did in Yu-Gi-Oh! itself. The original Manga had a LOT of games, not just the card game. Though not that game itself, a similar game they call Dragon block/Dragon cards in season 0/manga. Seriously, if you haven't, watch season 0 and read the manga. It's super fricked. Yami straight up mercs dudes.
Besides Yuki-Onna and maybe Kitsune, what are some particularly interesting kinds of Yokai with elemental aspects? I believe that someone mentioned wind weasels, for example.
You should first define what you think is a typical monster.
Because you're probably american, i assume you mean the stuff you have seen in hollywood films and d&d monster manual.
The reason why these japanese monsters feel more alien to you is because they're from a culture that is largely unfamiliar to you. You're probably fascinated by them because of this reason.
All the cultures in the world have their monsters. In some places, like Europe, the stories of monsters have spread all over because of trade, pilgrims and whatnot. But you're sure to find that there are cultural flavors to those creatures depending on the region.
Japan is far off from Europe and North America, and there was no trade, and the stories stayed in Japan, and as you now discover them they seem alien to you.
Japan was for a... Relatively long time a vassal state of China. When they became independent they became independent. Completely. Eventually the Mongols took over and tried to attack Japan, and failed. So that was a no. And then the Sengoku Jidai happened and after that Japan closed down until they sorted out their own shit.
As for trade with Europe specifically... Yea it's far away. Though there was trade between China and Rome, most trade stopped at Parthia due to a variety of reasons, but one of them was the ludicrous Parthians taxes, so it was easier to sell to the Parthians who sold to Rome and take the winnings than try to sell directly to Rome. Though some adventurous souls did. There's a whole book/diary about a trip from a guy who did just that. Link to the translation below. And Pliny the elder lamented this.
For America, there was just no interest in sailing East. Partially due to the Sengoku Jidai. If there was and China and Japan did sail East and landed on the West Coast, who knows how history would be today.
Japan was for a... Relatively long time a vassal state of China. When they became independent they became independent. Completely. Eventually the Mongols took over and tried to attack Japan, and failed. So that was a no. And then the Sengoku Jidai happened and after that Japan closed down until they sorted out their own shit.
As for trade with Europe specifically... Yea it's far away. Though there was trade between China and Rome, most trade stopped at Parthia due to a variety of reasons, but one of them was the ludicrous Parthians taxes, so it was easier to sell to the Parthians who sold to Rome and take the winnings than try to sell directly to Rome. Though some adventurous souls did. There's a whole book/diary about a trip from a guy who did just that. Link to the translation below. And Pliny the elder lamented this.
For America, there was just no interest in sailing East. Partially due to the Sengoku Jidai. If there was and China and Japan did sail East and landed on the West Coast, who knows how history would be today.
There was plenty of trade with Japan and mainland Asia. Their period of isolation was under the Tokugawa Shogunate, which did so as a response to colonialism. For context, during the Sengoku Jidai, western traders supplied various samurai clans with guns, usually if they nominally converted to Christianity. The Tokugawa's taking over after a century and a half of civil war, not only hunted down and melted all the swords they could, and tore down all the castles they could to prevent another civil-war, also outlawed this gun trade, and Christianity itself (ironically crucifying many japanese converts).
It was a fear (and not an unfounded one) that christian missionaries could be used as a means to infiltrate and colonize Japan. But it was believed if Japan completely isolated themselves they'd be a hedgehog essentially. Too spiky and not worth the trouble of taking out and turning into a colony. That was until the forced-reopening of Japan, or as it's known in Japan 'the Black Ship incident' in which America showed up with modern steampowered ironclads with the unspoken message of 'we could colonize you at any time, and it would be laughably easy to do so', which set off a series of events that lead to the Meiji Restoration.
But even during that period were the Dutch. Who were relatively cool on the whole colonizing thing, who were given a single island (formerly a peninsula) to trade out of, which was the sole window to the outside world Japan had. Not just western science and medicine, but also just then modern events of the world (like the American Revolution). It was a small handful of 'Dutch-Learning Scholars' (as study of the outside world was called) who lead Japan's westernization.
(cont.)
Prior to that though, as I mentioned there was a thriving trade in the Sengoku Jidai to various samurai clans importing guns and missionaries. There was the famous case of Yasuke the Black Samurai who was bodyguard to Oda Nobunaga himself brought over by the Portugese (initially Oda assumed that Yasuke was an elaborate hoax and demanded he be brought before him. Then upon seeing a six-foot tall black guy decided this was an elaborate joke and just a portugese man in blackface and ordered him stripped. Seeing he was black all the way down, he ordered Yasuke bathed to prove this, and upon still being black, Oda became taken with him, bought him off the Portuguese and made him his bodyguard).
Some other european powers dipped their toes into Japan, but it was mostly the Portugese and Dutch. And of course there was trade with Korea and Japan. The island of Tsushima in particular for most of it's history was a major stopping point for trade between Korea and Japan, with many in mainland Japan seeing the people of Tsushima as more Korean than Japanese, but they were at different times given monopolies on trade with Korea. In particular a lot of ideas were imported from China into Japan, such as their early writing system, civil-service, eastern philosophies, and buddhism.
I don't have much to offer here but I've heard from a friend that it's very much a White Expact Guy Living In Japan thing to write a Book about Yokai so you don't get forced out of the country by the residency/expat rules. So that's kind of funny.
Ashuras are cool, good fodder for a greek tragedy like story.
Unless it uses electricity. Electricity explicitly prevents the formation of a tsukiyomi (which is the explanation for why you don't see them often nowadays). Granted only a few weapons do use electricity.
It'd be interesting though if we reach 2040, and a bunch of guns from WW2 start gaining sentience and want to bomb pearl-harbor again.
I don't recall hearing that rule. I mentioned earlier in the thread seeing a tsukiyomi that was a british teacop from the industrial era, pretty sure those weren't handmade in that era.
2 years ago
Anonymous
>anime reference >mattering
2 years ago
Anonymous
>hey what do the japanese think of their own mythology? >lets look at things the japanese have made.
2 years ago
Anonymous
It's on the same tier as looking at a shortstack goblin thread here on /tg/ while looking into goblin myths
>I don't have much to offer here but I've heard from a friend that it's very much a White Expact Guy Living In Japan thing to write a Book about Yokai so you don't get forced out of the country by the residency/expat rules. So that's kind of funny.
Wait, it's that the same guy who created this?
Everything that you want to know about japanase yokai is right here
https://yokai.com/
You know that's something I've always wondered. And you know, despite being an obviously easy concept to exploit, I've only seen one thing that follows through on the concept, the cartoon American-Dragon Jake Long, where the title character isn't just a son of a chinese immigrant family, he is also the son of a long history of chinese dragons who emigrated to New York, alongside all other manner of fantasy creatures from across the world. And he has to balance not just his chinese heritage and american upbringing, but the fact that he has a dragon heritage he has few people in his life to learn from (so he can fight evil), with the fact that most of his friends are humans who aren't really in the know about magic.
Anyway, I would imagine Yuki-Onna would probably also live in parts of siberia, and northern-korea and China- it'd be interesting to explore Yuki-Onna leftover in Sakhalin (the southern tip was part of Japan before seized by the Soviets in WW2- alongside the Kurils). Kitsune have regional variants in China and Korea already (in Korea they are more likely to murder you, and in China more likely to marry you).
Also for some weird reason I think the nation with the largest japanese expat community is Brazil.
>Also for some weird reason I think the nation with the largest japanese expat community is Brazil.
What are some cool Brazilian monsters they can interact with them?
I think there's a were-jaguar, that's more like a giant man with a jaguar head. I know South America has some particularly odd monsters, but I don't know many about them.
What are some good ideas for the backstory of a Japanese inspired setting? Here's what I'm thinking thus far, but I want to fill it out some more-
>Humans settle into different tribes of the major islands, but the gods invent an emperor to unite them after they spend too much time killing each-other >A classical era sets in focused mostly on poetry, and worshipping the gods, as the Emperor sits back in his palace and lets priests act as regional governors >these positions become hereditary, and the Emperor's power wanes and the priesthood becomes corrupt >Eventually the military wages a war against the priesthood to restore the Emperor, and succeeds >the warriors of the military becomes the Samurai, but over time too, their positions become herditary and feudalism sets in
And some other ideas I have in mind would be 'the thirteen invasions' a series of offensive and defensive wars by the samurai amongst their neighbors, who take the place of mongolia, korea, china, the Ainu and Okinawans, that take place over the course of a century I was thinking.
A big pirate war in a period of golden age of piracy in in the region.
In the mythic past, a series of wars against Kaiju sized monsters.
Various uprisings by upstart samurai clans.
But I was thinking that just prior to the setting start date would be where the Shogun in response to civil unrest resorts to more and more brutal methods of repression, until he essentially becomes an Oni/Demon-King. This prompts every other samurai clan bar a few loyalists to band together and overthrow him. And while they succeed in doing so, this smashes central authority on the islands, and the samurai coalition starts infighting about who gets to be in charge now, until a 'warring states' period erupts with the throne of the Shogun up for grabs.
They are kind of goofy, which in a way makes them scarier, because they aren't adhering strictly to "this is the criteria for being scary". The most memorable monsters have something goofy about them. The alien from the movie Alien is literally a bunch of sex organs and high heels. Predator has a snake vaginia for a mouth with fishnets and dreads, chuckie is a literally baby doll, King Kong likes human boobies and is basically a reverse furry.
Last Samurai is based on a historic counter-revolution against westernization- hence why the government ends the movie mowing down the samurai with machine-guns. So that would have been after the removal of the Tokugawa, and the opening of Japan, and the end of it's isolation.
Also I'm misremembering the name on the object Yokai.
Well yes, the last battle is vaguely based on Shiroyama. That battle wasn't that one sided as far as I'm aware. But there was a guy they based the character on, Jules Brunet.
[...] >husband/brother
Gross. Why do so many mythologies have so much incest? Especially since there’s a certain Greek myth that shows it was much more negatively viewd among mortals.
More or less what
Firstly remember that most gods aren't imagined as being strictly humans. They tend to viewed as forces of nature that are often given human forms either for artistic representation or so they can better communicate with mortals. Like the Greeks believed that if the gods showed you their true forms it would atomize you on the spot.
Secondly when coming up with the lineage of gods, well gods tend to have to come from all the same source if they are 'your' gods, and they tend not to marry mortals as that produces demigods not gods, so the family tree ends up more of a trunk as a result.
said. It's a way of saying "only we are good enough for ourselves, and outsiders aren't". Also, to be fair, Amaterasu kind of kicked him out after he killed the goddess of plenty. Or Susano'o did that in some versions. I actually prefer the idea of Susano'o doing it because it's hilarious to me. Guy gets kicked, reconciles, comes back, sees her puking up delicious fude, kills her, gets kicked again. It's just s funny image. But the Tsukiyomi one is more popular.
Also, gods don't really have anyone else. Everyone's related. And unlike with Humans, no issues there. Unless you count Hephaestos, but he was made by Hera alone, and/or her cheating depending on the source, though I do think that one's a late Roman/early Christian version. Also he was thrown from Olympus. That definitely contributed to him being even more misshapen. Though funny thing, he was actually NOT married to Aphrodite in the Iliad but Aglaea, one of the three Graces, the one of beauty I believe. Hesiod and Renaissance writers later explained this as his divorce from Aphrodite in an attempt to create a Pan-Hellenic religion (which didn't exist), and Victorian writers kind of forgot about it.
What are some good stories about the Japanese gods? I know the story of Susano'o and the storm god (and how he's an butthole, which makes sense when you remember what japanese typhoon's are like), and killed one of Amaterasu's favored atttendents, skinned her, and tossed the body of the dinner table causing her to go to her hikki cave. As a result Susano'o was banished, and he wandered Japan until he came upon an eight-headed serpent (Orochi) that was being ritually fed princesses for each-head. Whereupon instead of getting into a giant massive battle with lightning stuff instead, left eight barrels of Saki to get the serpent drunk and then cut off it's heads while it slept. Whereupon he found the legendary sword the Kusonagi (Grasscutter) which he gifted to Amaterasu for forgiveness.
Also the gods had to get the Goddess of Beauty to do a strip show to get Amaterasu out of her Hikki cave, which was a period where there was no sun, as the Sun God was hiding in a cave.
Susano'o got better after being kicked out. Humbled. Mostly. He still had a temper. Funny think about his name though. It can be spelled a few ways. Susano'o, Susanowo, or Susa-no-ou. The last specifically would be translated as Susa the King. Though he's not really responsible for Typhoons. That's Raijin and Fujin. Sometimes. It depends. For stories I'd suggest reading the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki. It's essentially the Shinto Bible. Not really. It's not the word of God, it's not the only source of it, and local myths and legends and variants on them are actually just as valid in Shinto.
The Archive has the Nihongi translation (alternate name for Nihon Shoki) for free, and you can find the Kojiki PDF by Googling it.
[...]
[...]
the word he was looking for is tsukumogami, artifact spirits that are formed when the "god" inside a man-made object awakens after 100 years. originally the word what the name of a specific animated tea container that, according to the myth, matsunaga hisahide gifted to oda nobunaga to negotiate peace
Well, yes. But anon referenced an energy that accumulates. That isn't really a thing as far as I'm aware. It's simply age.
You mean transforming into a monster?
An object turning "alive" and having a will of its own is a very common superstition about weapons of all kinds. Even now some /k/ gay felt a particular gun in his collection shoots energy up his arm as its cold to the touch, or alternatively a different weapon is just guiding his aim as if someone else is doing it for him. Turning into an actual being that moves around and shit is a different thing.
It's also very common in Animistic religions in general. Not necessarily exactly like Tsukumegami, but that they possess a spirit, a will. That's why some First Tribes burn clothes, wood, and books possessed by the deceased, believing that a part of their spirit is in them, but metal and electronics can be purified. Though First Tribe religions really range from Totemism to Shamanism to Animism to Henoism and combinations thereof, depending which area and Tribe, so it's hard to say anything about them in generals.
>husband/brother
Gross. Why do so many mythologies have so much incest? Especially since there’s a certain Greek myth that shows it was much more negatively viewd among mortals.
Firstly remember that most gods aren't imagined as being strictly humans. They tend to viewed as forces of nature that are often given human forms either for artistic representation or so they can better communicate with mortals. Like the Greeks believed that if the gods showed you their true forms it would atomize you on the spot.
Secondly when coming up with the lineage of gods, well gods tend to have to come from all the same source if they are 'your' gods, and they tend not to marry mortals as that produces demigods not gods, so the family tree ends up more of a trunk as a result.
Unless it uses electricity. Electricity explicitly prevents the formation of a tsukiyomi (which is the explanation for why you don't see them often nowadays). Granted only a few weapons do use electricity.
It'd be interesting though if we reach 2040, and a bunch of guns from WW2 start gaining sentience and want to bomb pearl-harbor again.
the word he was looking for is tsukumogami, artifact spirits that are formed when the "god" inside a man-made object awakens after 100 years. originally the word what the name of a specific animated tea container that, according to the myth, matsunaga hisahide gifted to oda nobunaga to negotiate peace
>originally the word what the name of a specific animated tea container that, according to the myth, matsunaga hisahide gifted to oda nobunaga to negotiate peace
So it only started happening around that time? And are there similar beings in other cultures?
An object turning "alive" and having a will of its own is a very common superstition about weapons of all kinds. Even now some /k/ gay felt a particular gun in his collection shoots energy up his arm as its cold to the touch, or alternatively a different weapon is just guiding his aim as if someone else is doing it for him. Turning into an actual being that moves around and shit is a different thing.
Nothing particularly interesting outside the common pattern that the "evil" weapons have an uncanny similarity to being exposed to radioactive material. So radiation = evil if you wanna go down that route. There is no particular look of these weapons either, a gun looks like a gun you could only tell when you touch them.
I'd heard it that it's the household object just learning to be animated on it's own accord due to accruing enough knowledge when surviving for a hundred years.
Depends. Yokai aren't weak to iron by necessity, but can be harmed and killed by weapons if they're physical, and sometimes if they're spirits. They are often weak to rituals and prayer, though not necessarily killed by them. Merely passing on, being purified, or just driven away. Others, like the Gashadokuro, are completely invincible.
Put them in a watch
It's not easy to spook the people that make anime and fap to hentai. You either step up your game or go to Russia.
How utterly rude.
They are Japanese.
Almost anything in the ordinary Japanese life can have a Yokai form or spawn a Yokai. A large number of Yokai have a shape that resembles human or they can disguise as humans.
Like anything Japanese, they have rules that apply to them and how people have to interact with them.
>Like anything Japanese, they have rules that apply to them and how people have to interact with them.
Like not being able to cross running water, being repulse by garlic, being invulnerable to anything but silver/cold iron, will cause cave ins if you curse or spit in a mine, being recognised by the bark-covered back, bursts in sunlight...
Nta, but the difference is consistency.
Consider this: from all the "vampire rules" you've listed, NONE applies to legends from my country and the concept of a werewolf is a wholesale cultural import from horror movies.
this might surprise you to fin out but 'yokai' only became 'consistent' in the late 19th/early 20th century and before then there was a lot of regional variation about how they appeared, what they were called and what they did
>Point
>(You)
Imagine being American and moronic. Just fricking imagine.
kys
>NONE applies to legends from my country
Japan, likewise, is but a single country.
Mythanon here. This is gonna be very nerdy and long winded but bear with me.
It's a matter of degrees. A Yokai is no different from a minor Kami, just much weaker. Yokai can become Kami (see holy trees and caves), or Kami can degrade into Yokai (see Sarugami, monkey Kami that stopped being worshipped and became Yokai).
It also that everything HAS a kami (lowercase k), which is like a spirit or soul or spark of existence, but not everything IS a Kami (capital K) which is more akin to the Western idea of a god. So a Yokai is just a higher degree of lowercase kami. So a kami can become a Kami, but not every does. Humans can become Kami through various means. Be it that they were that important or their spirit was just vengeful and they were enshrined. Either way, they become Kami.
Shinto is pretty complex in its mix of animistic and totemistic traits moxed with ancestor worship, except it's not really YOUR ancestors but important people in general. Not to mention its mixing with Buddhism (where the images and forms of Kami come from and enshrining people comes from), stealing from the Ainu, and that Shinto is ancient but was not codified until Buddhism came to Japan. They wanted to codify their religion, or really folk religions, into one pan Japanese religion. The actual practices of what would become Shinto go back AT LEAST 3500 years (earliest archeological evidence is from around 1500 BC). Probably more, since animism is as old as humanity, but archeology can't prove it and there are no records, so we're left to guess.
So that's the comparative religion answer. In practice they're the same as monsters. We know Faeries and Giants and Demons, but a faceless guy who only scares people, or the guy with an eye on his butt are strange and exotic.
Take the Aigamaxu of the Khoikhoi. Humanoids with eyes on their feet so they walk on their hands. Exotic because we're not familiar with them.
Pic of an interpretation of a Bukavac.
>It also that everything HAS a kami (lowercase k), which is like a spirit or soul or spark of existence, but not everything IS a Kami (capital K) which is more akin to the Western idea of a god
That sounds very confusing, why did they use such similar terminology for them? And what are some other misconceptions the West has about Yokai? Also, MythAnon, where can we contact you outside of /tg/, do you frequent other boards, or any non-Ganker sites preferably?
Consider "spirit" in English.
>asking people to dox themselves on Ganker
moron
He was kind of wrong because its not capitalized vs non capitalized (japanese doesn't exactly have capitalization). The "godlike" entities are Okami ("Greater" or "Royal" Spirit rather than "Normal" Spirit). Typically, yokai are also independent entities rather than object spirits. Kami *can* become yokai given time, for example almost any object that's been neglected for a long time without fully degrading can turn into a Tsukumogami, or animated object.
If you're into webcomic stuff theres a cool little-known one called Doormant (weird spelling intentional)about a world where everyone can communicate with one specific kind of kami.
It's easier when you translate, so that's why I used capital and lowercase and few people actually want to get into the nitty gritty of Japanese characters.
Okami also doesn't refer to all Kami. You don't call, say, a local fertility Kami an Okami. A Kami worshipped in a very specific temple or region in Honshu (I don't know, picked random part of Japan, but say, a hit spring Kami from the North wouldn't be worshipped or probably even known in the South) isn't an Okami. But you definitely call Amaterasu an Okami.
ah, yeah, that's fair. They do have a shitload of minor gods that aren't part of the main pantheon that are significantly above object spirits. I stand corrected, friend.
a while back I set up an email specifically for taking convos off Ganker. It's an option but if you're not into the idea that's entirely understandable.
Sure, I’m fine with that, thanks. Also, what are some Tsukumogami equivalents from other cultures, if any exist?
honestly don't know any, closest I can think is golems from qabala, and those are intentionally animated by a practitioner, not awakened on their own. Shinto really has some interesting unique concepts.
Also apologies for any confusion, I'm assuming you're looking for mythanon, I was just giving him a suggestion for opening external contact, but if you wanna talk mythology more i'm at [email protected]
I know that Kitsune are associated with Inari, are any other Yokai tied to a Kami like that? Or is it just them?
I’ll probably check that out. Thanks for sharing this anon.
>I know that Kitsune are associated with Inari, are any other Yokai tied to a Kami like that? Or is it just them?
Three-legged crows are often divine messengers if not incarnations of the sun, Tengu are mountain temple guardians, and Tanuki are often alternatives to Kitsune as servants of various gods.
>Three-legged crows
Why are black birds associated with the sun of all things?
It is a Chinese thing. They depicted the sun as a red or golden three-legged crow and the Japanese partially copied them.
Sunspots.
Because the ancient chinese that invented the legend totally knew about sun spots.
It's a pretty common myth across the world that ravens/crows weren't always black, but were scorched black by celestial fire. It's common in Native American legends from multiple peoples stretching from Alaska on down, and I think there's a similar story in Australia too.
Maori and polynesian stuff talk about that too. Lots of myths like to mention how crows used to be white but were burnt black by the sun in some way.
Greek as well until Apollo burnt them for spreading rumors.
As far as I'm aware, there's no real reason for their skin color. It might be the connotation with the colors though. Red is often seen as angry, and blue as cold.
Yea but that's Chinese. While Japan certainly took stuff from it, it's also very, very different. It's the whole Roman and Greek thing. One took from the other but the end result is different for people who actually look into it.
And you are correct about that yes. I believe I mentioned that Shinto was created as a codification of said different and dispersed folk religions as a reaction to Buddhism.
Europe preserves its culture, but we don't export it. Everyone in an area knows about their local and neighboring myths and stories. Go to Italy. Everyone knows it. Go to Germany. Everyone knows it. Go to Switzerland, or Spain, or France. Everyone knows the local history and lore. We just don't oversaturate it. And also because the main market for this shit is America. Americans don't generally want to buy European stuff. Why probably differs from person to person, but I've seen at least some claim that US lore is just European stuff sifted through a Puritan and Christian view. Quite wrong, as it's a minority of German and British (British having a lot of French influences) myths mixed with Native American. There's little to none of Slavic, Austrian, Spanish (though that's more South America), post Roman Italian, or really any other stuff there.
Thanks, do you have any sources for all of this please? Also, are you Myth Anon?
Indeed I am. Well, source for which part? The Apollo and crow thing? A simple Google search will reveal that one and its in a lot of miscellaneous Greek myth books.
The Chinese vs Japanese? That's more comparative and harder.
The Shinto thing is more historical theory though widely accepted. The Nihon Shoki and Kojiki were written around the time. The Wikipedia article on History of Shinto is a good start.
Again. Not entirely true. Plenty of books, comics, shows, and whatever are made. Just so few are exported. Last month a movie was made here exploring the mythology of the local mountains. It's decent. Not great. But it's also in the local language, and I haven't yet seen subs.
Last year Serbs made a movie about the time when they were controlled by the Turks. Croatian had a theater play I've seen before the rona about Istra stories. Again. Plenty, we just don't export it. I gave my theory as to why. But beyond that, who knows?
>Indeed I am
Great! Do you have any throwaway emails or anything so we can talk outside of Ganker, and avoid the whims of needing to make sure that a thread remains up long enough for a reply please?
What are some other popular colors besides Red and Blue? Maybe Green?
Just propose to the guy already
Yellow, green, black were some other fairly common colors that oni came in. Most were just described as humans with horns and big mouths so assume that common skin tone was typical.
That's a negative. I prefer to do it here. If I give something it feels like Im almost required to answer. And partially due to work and partially due to just not feeling it, I'd rather not.
>Japan has Yokai as an academic field
Seriously? Damn. Did not know that. We have mythology classes dedicated to our own, but not an entire field.
I would like to ammend two things you said. Yokai aren't just always fallen Kami. They can be but aren't always.
Tengu also aren't always fallen monks. That's the Buddhist side of Japanese mythology. In Shinto and Yamabushi they're just Yokai. And that's in part what makes Japanese mythology interesting. It's not just Shinto. It's Confucian, Buddhist, Taoist, Shinto, Yamabushi, Ryokyuan, and more.
Books. Scrolls. Japanese tales by Tyler is a good start, or The book of Yokai by Dylan Foster. But any of the Yokai scrolls are your best bet. I'm not sure if any are translated though. Bakemono zukishi is online but not translated.
It's just creating monsters connected to nature. A lot of nature stuff. Animals, weather, people but spooky. A hairy leg that drops down and demands to be washed, no face, eye for the ass?
It's kinda like a mostly harmless prank.
>Seriously? Damn. Did not know that. We have mythology classes dedicated to our own, but not an entire field.
I think the government of Japan unofficially recognizes this stuff, hence why they have exorcisms and rituals, like that one fox demon that escaped a rock a couple of years ago.
Iceland has the same type of thing. One can get a degree in elf and fairy information. And then get a license to do things like appease the elfs before a construction is made in an area etc.
>Everyone knows the local history and lore.
X To Doubt
>t. Amerifat
First - no, second - Americans still use cowboys in their mass media, while Europe for some reason hate own national symbols, you never see the use of historical motifs and symbols at the same level as Japan does. It reaches the point of absurdity when Asians are more obsessed with European culture than Europeans themselves.
>local history and lore
>cowboys
>moronic projections about "le feeble leftoid Yurope"
>while treating it as unified whole, too
Yep, Yanktard confirmed
I dont know about that. I lived in scotland, and thistles and unicorns (national animal) litter the place. People love the local legends like Burke and Hare, William Wallace, Harry Potter and so on. I also routinely see packs of Asian tourists there in the summer, who I imagine treat the experience like an isekai journey.
>cowboys
You barely ever hear about any interesting folk tales from the pioneer days, most of what you can look up is also questionable in authenticity.
The wild west is mythologized plenty, and in it's own days. It's just instead of ' there was a dragon' its 'people were constantly shooting each other'. Texas has looser gun laws today than it did in 1880. Couldn't bring guns into church for instance which isn't the case now. The legendary shootout at the OK Corral was one in which nobody actually got shot and lasted only five minutes. Contrast that with any mass shooting this year.
Also westerns are a tricky genre to tackle these days, because the race politics of the era were completely glossed over in the golden era of westerns. To do so now would be massively disingenuous, but brings with it a lot of uncomfortable baggage. You can do it sure, but it removes the simplicity of 'good guys with guns shooting bad guys with guns'. That said I think westerns get new life if blended with other genres. Westworld was quite popular, as are space-westerns. Probably not dissimilar to how there are more fantasy medieval films than actual medieval films.
To be fair, frick race politics. It's shit when it's human against elves or some other race and it's shit when it's human against human.
Americans also use a lot of pirates. The golden age of piracy mostly took place in and around the Gulf of Mexico. Then they get to add stuff like the Fountain of Youth in Florida somewhere and Blackbeard hanging around South Carolina.
Modern audiences also do not like the media style wrapped around it either. Westerns usually mean country/western music attached as the soundtrack with some notable Nashville players in the movie. And a lot of people are just not fans of country stuff at all. Before we even get to the much more modern aspect of half the country stars being very outspoken conservative fox News types who love triggering the libs as much as they can. Makes for a bad time with Hollywood types and movie making, much less mas audience appeal.
We need more Tim Nelson and less George Strait
Country music isn't the problem. Just dont use modern country music. Even rednecks all agree modern country sucks because it's all the same whiny song, over and over. Classic western soundtracks like fistful of dollars still kickass. People love the songs used in the red-dead games.
Country died a death of it's own making, similar to metal.
Personally I think it's a fascinating subject when handled earnestly. I love historical civil rights films as an example. But it is a topic that must be handled with care, which is a big ask for some people who just want to make a movie. But you can do it in a western. Blazing Saddles is a fantastic example, as it's a brutal deconstruction of westerns and the race politics of the era by making a black sheriff the center star of the show.
Agreed on the country. Started going to hell when Johnny Cash died and arrived on the early 10s. I'm sure there's a few good ones, but parsing through the amount of same style crap about vehicles, women, beer, women leaving, 4th of July, or how it's good to be a country person and living simply.
Yeah we Americans kinda only want the good stuff while keeping out the shit tier stuff (sl*v shit, Mediterranean shit, etc)
>I know that Kitsune are associated with Inari, are any other Yokai tied to a Kami like that? Or is it just them?
We have Amanozako acting as the ancestral goddess of Tengu and to the lesser degree yomotsu shikome acting as Izanami's servants in the land of the dead.
Thanks for the email address. I sent you a test email, be sure to check it.
What was with the tengu and huge noses? Also, most people would agree with you anon. XD
>What was with the tengu and huge noses?
The pic you're replying to even has prominent wings, yet you can't figure it out?
Tengu are complicated beings, and the nose, or really type, and what it means depends on if you're looking at the Buddhist interpretation or the Shinto interpretation. There's 4 types I'm aware of, technically 5. So let's go down the line.
So the Ko-Tengu, or Karasu-Tengu, are crow humanoids. In Buddhism they were people who were too angry to pass on. In Shinto they're simply their own type of being, often associated with deep forests.
The Dai-Tengu have long noses. In Buddhism these were priests that were so proud they didn't truly reach enlightenment. In Shinto the represent virility. Ya know. The dong. The larger the nose the stronger the Tengu.
The Kawa-Tengu are crane-like Tengu that dwell near streams or rivers ir lakes in the mountains. If I remember correctly they are made from souls that were too depressed and despondent, so they couldn't pass on.
Last are the Konoha-Tengu, which may or may not be their own thing, or just a type of Ko-Tengu. Their really only claim to fame was turning into trees. There's some speculation that they were shyness reincarnated, but there's so little I can find about them.
I'll just give honorable mention to the Hane no Haeta Kappa, which literally means Kappa with wings. It's more of a chicken than a Kappa or Tengu, but it's somewhere between the two types of beings. Considering Kappa actually transform between being it may be the transitional form.
I should probably mention the Shugendo, or Yamabushi, as it's probably better known as. In there Tengu are considered the step above human, and the goal of the syncretic cult (the old meaning of cult, as in, devotion to a specific thing, without the negative association it has today), but not the end goal by itself, as Tengu are Yamabushi themselves. There's obviously more, but I have 2000 characters. If you want to know more, read a book or the Wikipedia article.
>XD
have a nice day.
Oh no, no. It's perfectly fine. That's why we're here, discussing stuff. And it's rare to see someone admit their mistakes, especially here.
Correct. It also refers to the Emperor, though that's because he was seen as descended and himself divine.
Well, it's also not that clear cut. Something I learned very recently, Kappa and all the subtypes (like Grappa, Kawa Otoko, Enko, and others) actually transform into land dwelling Yokai/Yosei (like Takiwaro, Shibaten, Yamawaro, and others). Not to mention degrading of Kami and rising of Yokai.
The taxonomy came in the Edo Period up until 1999, so pretty recently, in a number of scrolls that collected the Yokai and classified them. It's not exactly old mythology, but I always say, any version of a myth is equally valid.
Though Yokai and Obake aren't always malevolent. Tengu are Yokai (when they're not minor Kami) but can be benevolent. Ryuu (when they aren't Kami) and certain types of Kitsune (white Kitsune fkr example, when they aren't Kami or work for Inari Okami) are always benevolent. Others are just there to trick or scare you for the lulz. The Betobetosan just follows your footsteps, the one Obake that just gives you goosebumps. Mean, but not malevolent. Oh, and the guardian Obake that are sometimes but not always also minor Kami.
isnt okami also a pun as it also means wolf or white wolf in japanese
When someone says capital in this way they are usually differentiating between a higher concept and a lower particular (as in, the Nature of everything, of the meaning of existance, vs nature, as in biology), rather than necissarily the particularities of english typology and grammer.
Its simply an expedient way to distingush this dynamic since its a very popular way to differentiate the two in english. the typologoical convention is describing a more broadly applicable idea not necissarily constrained to a particular language.
One, I'm not giving you my info on the net. Especially not on Ganker. I post when I have time and a myth needs explaining to clarifying. And even then it's 2000 characters. Not exactly in depth.
Two, it makes perfect sense in Japanese. As anon above said, consider the word spirit. It can mean willpower or soul or ghost. Translating things is always imperfect. Especially when it comes from logographic languages such as Japanese. It may read the same, but the written word changes the meaning.
And three, misconceptions. I mean outside of what I mentioned above, not a lot. It's mythology. Myth has many, many variations. Anything could at one point have been true. As long as it folds generally into the base myth.
I guess maybe one that I constantly see is about Oni. Often they're portrayed or translated as Demons or evil Ogres. They are not. I talked about this before here, but Oni come in three kinds. The first are punishers in Hell. These are the youngest, added when Shinto was mixing with Buddhism. They're also usually good working under Enma/Yama. More like Angels guarding Hell than Demons. The second are people turned unit Oni due to bad deeds. These include Hannya, which are further divided into three. It's a lot. Not gonna go super into it. The third are a subtype of the second and children of Yamata-no-Orochi, like Shuten-Doji. Also Mezu(ki) and Gozu(ki) are not usually seen as Oni. They're their own class of being. But, again, version.
Oh, and Tengu as Goblins (I mean... Really?) or linked with the Chinese Tiangou (the name is borrowed but the creature itself is completely different). Tengu are complex and have a long history of changes based on time, region, and even specific Tengu themselves. They were neutral, tricksters, always evil, helpful... The translation bothers me is my point.
But yea, beyond minor details of the myth itself, no, not a lot outright misconceptions I've seen. Versions exist after all.
Japanese is just a different language and culture. The word Kami would be used to apply to the Abrahamic God, Zeus, the demigod Hercules, to something like a water nymph. While Japanese Kami are all of a similar kind and all have specific domains, the difference in power levels and significance varies a lot.
Another mistranslation would be Oni being translated as demon. Ogre is better, while Oni are all very strong and dangerous, they are more chaotic than evil, and can be reasoned with (even if they aren't particularly evil). They are kind of the opposite if a Christian demon, more chaotic neutral than lawful evil.
What was up with most Oni being Blue or Red Myth Anon? Why make them those colors, and why not other ones? Also, do you have a throwaway email like that other anon does so we can talk without being at Ganker’s mercy?
Does that differ at all between the male and female Oni? Also, I don’t really consider demons as a really “lawful” bunch, why do you say that?
Oni are another thing that existed in a lot of different cultures so there are loads of different descriptions of them. Some being imported from China while others are a local flavor that came up centuries later. Traditional folklore has them as invisible little monsters that cause problems like knocking over plates and bowls, breaking things and causing disease. Buddhists have them as the main keepers of hell. Other later stories have them as a typical monster one finds out in the wilderness.
The red and blue difference comes from a specific folktale about one being friendly and calm while the other was angry and violent. But they also come in more colors, that one just made the idea popular.
Chinese had them with Ox and Horse heads, sometimes other gods were confused with oni so the qualities of that god were attributed to oni as a whole like the lightning and wind powers. Enma is thought of as an oni, or their king. Raijin and Fujin look like typical oni so their abilities are attributed to oni.
Demons in abrahamic Faith's must work with a framework of an all powerful god. Ergo demons can't outright kill you or steal your soul, you must consent to selling your soul. The most famous example is Dr. Faust. But if they break the rules of the contract the hold on your soul is null and void. Hence they may be buttholes but are bound to certain rules.
Female oni are traditionally feminine (so no muscle bound amazons unfortunately), but retain the horns, tiger pelts, and skin colors of oni alongside their love of booze and monstrous strength (and so are still dangerous of you piss them off), as fir red and blue oni, they come in many colors, but red and blue are common due to a famous story of a red and blue oni, who are of opposite temperaments, and are both best friends and bitter rivals. You ever watch an anime with a rival dynamic, its that.
In Chinese they pretty much outright claim that there is hardly a difference between a god and a yaoguai at all as far as creatures go. There is no clear species classification or physical difference between them. They are the same classification of spiritual creature that is greater than a human or animal with varying powers that humans lack.
Mostly a god has a job as appointed by the celestial court and is ordered to control a lake, river, mountain etc. While a yaoguai is more of a wandering monster that takes up residence in a wild area and eats people until a hero or god kills it or gives it a job. Often they convert to Buddhism and becomes a guardian of that area and helps people from that point on. Other times they are caught and punished by the Celestial bureaucracy and forced to work a shittier job like be the god of a bathroom or swamp for a few thousand years.
That's mostly due to the folklore coming from a few hundred to thousand different villages that had little communication with each other so each one had their own term, their own version of things like the Tengu and how they work, and sometimes with wildly different descriptions of what they are etc. Sometimes the differences in a creature is just a regional story being slightly different from another.
One town says they are huge red faced gods, another says they are little crow people, another says they look like old monks, another says they are more like dogs, another claims they are little people ....it just goes on like that.
they are still just Japanese flavor faerie, follow a lot of the same rules and everything
Read a goddamn wiki article. Quit spoonfeeding these buttholes
Lore.
they are all based on animals, regular household items and corrupted demons from the other world than gained a new form or a personality after 100 years of service. here are some of them, you can google the names.
Funna Yurei
Genbu
Kappa
Umi-Bozu
Amikiri
Baku
Biwa-bokuboku
Burabura
Byakko
Dai Tengu
Gashadokuro
Hanzaki
Hi Hi
Hyakume
Itsumade
Jiang Shi
Jinmenju
Jorogumo
Jubokko
Kamaitachi
Karasu Tengu
Kasa-Obake
Kirin
Kodama
Komainu
Kyubi / Kitsune
Mokumokuren
Nekomata
Nue
Nurikabe
Ohaguro Bettari
Oiwa
Omukade
Oni – Rot und Blau
Rokurokubi
Seiryu
Suzaku
Tanuki
Teke Teke
Tsuchinoko
Tsurube Otoshi
Ushi Oni
Wanyudo
Yuki-Onna
Nothing. There really aren't a lot of broad monster categories which are totally unique, because any category as vague as 'fairy' or 'yokai' is going to have a huge amount of crossover with similar ones, given the fairly universal nature of monster mythology. Virtually any yokai would work fine as a European fairy and vice-versa. Exceptions would be things which are very tied to an animist world-view, such as the spirits of objects, but there are a lot of animist cultures with similar beings.
In general, don't worry about trying to make monsters (or anything else) original or unique, and concentrate on doing them well.
>kitsune, tanuki, nekomata work fine as a European fairy
dumbass
, tanuki, nekomata work fine as a European fairy
Yes. Get the pop culture out of your ass
Well, Tsukumogami (objects that come to life after 1000 years for those unfamiliar with them) are a pretty cool concept in my book. How come there's no real equivalent of them in cultures beyond Japan itself? And has anyone seen any cool takes on the concept?
Tsugumomo has a pretty cool take, you should check it out sometime. As for the other cultures thing, I have no clue.
I tried to read this but I just ended up jerking off
>How come there's no real equivalent of them in cultures beyond Japan itself?
Intelligent/animate artifacts are a thing elsewhere, as are objects that acquire magical properties through "experience".
Japanese attitudes toward permanence and craft are pretty important to how tzukumogami work, too. A hundred year old paper lantern or umbrella is both totally unnatural and a glorious achievement by its creator, a tension reflected in the ambivalence of attaining sentience as an absurd faerie.
>Intelligent/animate artifacts are a thing elsewhere, as are objects that acquire magical properties through "experience".
Can you please give some specific examples of this kind of phenomenon? And what’s the deal with the ambivalence?
Thanks anon! Contact you soon!
100, not 1000.
I think China has an equivalent, just not as widespread. The idea is that any animal or object that spends a hundred years in prayer or meditating can attain magic through enlightenment, which comes from china. Same rule applies to kitsune, which are normal foxes who gain an additional tail for every hundred years of enlightenment and has equivalents in china and Korea (in China they are more likely to marry you, in Korea they are more likely to eat you and in Japan its 50/50)
>How come there's no real equivalent of them in cultures beyond Japan itself?
There is, just not the anthropomorphism. Even now people will swear by weapons that have tasted blood almost a hundred years ago from the World Wars as if it just "feels right" in their hands, or they get this feeling of energy flowing through them as they somehow just do better with it. Or dare to say that it is basically giving them nosebleeds just touching the thing as its cold to the touch or feel a strong desire to hurt people.
>TFW the 1000 year-old cumsock found mom.
What are some big Yokai that we can use as major monsters or BBEGs? Also, how might Yokai adapt to the modern day in an urban fantasy setting?
You might see some dildo, fleshlight, gundam, piercings, cars, planes or trains hunted!
One of the most famous monsters in japanese lore is the Orochi, an 8-headed dragon serpent slain by the god of storms. So giant kaiju monsters are a part of the mythos.
I forget their names but one manga I read had giants who live in the mountains of japan that were the beings who physically created the islands. Supposedly they are all asleep but when they turn over in their sleep is why earthquakes happen.
Also I reccomend Youkai Shoujo it's a trash harem manga that turns into a kino battle manga about youkai in akihabara.
The Gashadokuro AKA a giant fricking skeleton. Also it can turn invisible and is completely indestructible.
It can be hurt by the magic of Shinto priests like most malicious spirits.
Not hurt but warded off, still that might be a reasonable change for a game to make them something more than
>Bones fall, everybody dies
Beat the frick outta him in Aria of Sorrow. Indestructible? Sounds like a skill issue to me.
a skull issue rather
>skull issue
Technically nothing, many countries have had similar stories of monsters but Japan was better about recording theirs because of a historically far higher literacy rate.
I do adore the Rokurokubi here, girl is just vibing.
Japan is gay
I personally sort of think of Yokai as a Japanese version of the Fey. Weird, chaotic, sometimes friendly, sometimes hostile, but ultimately fundemental to the underlying metaphysical function of reality or a byproduct of it.
Japan has a weird thing where they have something like a taxonomy of supernatural entities. Yokai/Monster (Malevolent, often corporeal natural spirits like kappa/kamaitachi), Yosei/Fairy ("bewitching spirits", anything fairylike, nonhuman societies like koropokkuru), Obake/Ghost (malevolent spirits of departed souls like yuki-onna, possibly akamanto), Kami/Gods (These range from tiny nature spirits like the kodama, spirits within leaves, to the active pantheon including Amaterasu, with influence and power based on how venerated they are; i.e. minor gods associated with local temples).
Well, what are some parallels among the Fae and Yokai that you’re aware of? Like, I’m pretty sure that there are European fox spirits, akin to Kitsune in Japan, but that’s the limit of my knowledge, sadly.
Most common is that they are in the same position as an in between living and spirit type of creature that is usually invisible. Often they are described as a spirit of someone or something that used to live there before and it resulted in the ghost becoming that creature or spawning it in some way. They haunt old abandoned places, or are a spirit of a lake or hill. They love to curse random people the come across and are always best left alone. Priests are often brought in to force an unruly one away for villagers etc.
Yokai are monsters in more old school folkloristic sense. The word means a bewitching spectre and applies to any strange creature. The reason yokai are different from the typical western monsters is that they are the weirdness fresh from the folklore instead of the narrow canon of creatures filtered by years of literary conventions born from the modern drive to get rid of "silly" or "illogical" creatures and to put the rest in the concrete system of taxonomy.
Instead of "goblinoids" you get a whole bunch of monsters whose only similarity is looking vaguely like a buddist monk. Even more classified variants tsukumogami (objects that gained spirit and came to life) are still varied, often being essentially living allegories or warnings.
To wrap it up, yokai are monsters, if you took the whole bestiary without crossing out/rationalysing most of the historical weirdness.
>To wrap it up, yokai are monsters, if you took the whole bestiary without crossing out/rationalysing most of the historical weirdness.
Pretty much. Yokai are a broad categorization and Japanese catch all term for weird, monstrous and supernatural entities that are not widely worshiped as divinities.
They are the sorts of creatures that the Irish/Scottish would call sidhe/sith and the English would call fairies, be the "fearsome critters" of North American tall tales and logging folklore, the Jersey Devils and Mothmen of modern urban legends, etc.
I like when they have boobs
they aren't, unless you're a fricking weeb
So much of Shinto comes from China
I know one of those oriental beasties can pull your soul out of your ass.
That’s a Kappa IIRC. WHY I have no idea.
Thanks for explaining Myth Anon. That IS you, right?
Yep, that was me.
One of the better resources.
Orochi wanted to become a Kami, and was also a sorcerer. That's why he ate (and hsd kids) with Earth Kami.
Speaking of which, yea. I guess I should add Kami csn be divided into heavenly Kami (Amaterasu) and earth Kami (Futsunushi would be an example, or Sukunabikona).
You're thinking Daidarabotchi. There's only one. He didn't MAKE the islands, he shaped them. He weighed two mountains, his footsteps make the lakes.
Demigods? Yea actually. The emperor is considered just a descendant, and is still referred to as Okami so yes. And the Anrahamic omnipotent God is Kami-sama or Okami-sama.
I did mention the Ono stuff above. They're not always evil nor chaotic, and there are various kinds of Oni. Those that follow Enma are pretty lawful. Punishers of evil, but in a very specific capacity. Then there's the people turned Oni, which are always evil, but not always chaotic, since you need to commit something horrible to turn into one. Though the children of Orochi who turned into Oni would definitely fall under NE or CE. Evil for the sake of evil or evil for their own benefit. Born Oni range between CE and the Evil alignments.
>One of the better resources
What are the other resources?
Everything that you want to know about japanase yokai is right here
https://yokai.com/
70% of them walk out of the sea and offer visions of the future as a warning. It's the yokai creed
I still don't understand why japanese youkai is more popular than chinese yaoguai. The former imported the myth from the latter.
I assume because Japan has spent more time exporting their culture than China. China is still playing catchup on the global media front, they are making a few inroads, but as fits the stereotype, they are mostly copies of stuff others have done. Plus I think the nature of authoritarian regimes and the lack of freedom of expression limits a cultures cultural exports (if you aren't free to put out a movie that says 'frick the government' then it's more limited than a movie that can)
Japan is pretty culturally dictatorial though. You HAVE to do the socially agreed upon right thing or you get it.
Surely you’re exaggerating a bit. Is it REALLY that bad? And how can we use this in regards to Yokai?
NTA but yes. Japan is hyper focused on society.
As for Yokai, it could go either way. A lot of them oppose this social structure, but could be conforming as well and have commentary on that. If you're designing your own and/or changing details about existing ones.
Why exactly is Japan so focused on that? So, maybe one Yokai causes chaos in offices?
The way I would describe it is Japan is a culture of doormats that will make you a paraiah for not being a doormat yourself. Ancient chinese proverb but it's relevant- the nail that sticks out is hammered down.
Now many are aware of this, this attitude is responsible for Japan's toxic work culture which plenty of anime have critiqued. But it's one of the problems in the culture.
Basically they never really dropped the old feudalism system. It's still peasants working their entire lives away for the local noble. Except now they call it salarymen working for the company owner. But it's the same shit with the same total lack of freedom of movement and locked in for life to the lord system.
That's not really true. Sure you could say there's similarities, but there isn't continuity like that.
A big break for instance was the American occupation, and I don't mean that in just 'there are americans now'. Japan has what are called Zaibatsu, which we would call Oligolipies. Now in the imperial era, these were state-backed monopolies similar to say Fiat in Italy and Volkswagon in Germany. In the US (ironically) the Zaibatsu were seen as throttling competition (correct) and impeding economic growth (correct) and were split up. This helped allow for Japan's post-war miracle by a fair margin.
The Zaibatsu are back today however, because the Japanese Diet voted to repeal the reforms made during the occupation, allowing them to come back basically as they were (minus the fascist big-brother element). This can also be linked to the stagnation of Japan's economy.
But the point being that the current state of Japan's work culture is not set in stone. It has changed in the past, and could change in the future.
Well also they had about a century of the government downplaying and outlawing most major cultural beliefs, with a lot of them just dying out and being forgotten. While Japan spent the exact same period of history writing down and codifying their old cultural beliefs into context for modern audiences and making lots of media that keeps it all alive. Japanese government has been very interested in maintaining and recording their cultural history from any little village they can find and keeping it alive. While China spent the 40s through 90s trying to eradicate old cultural beliefs and force villagers to modernize.
China is likely copying a lot because they simply do not have a lot of their own cultural history recorded any longer and have to fill the gaps. It's definitely not well known in most areas that had a strict government clamp down on old superstitious beliefs and folk religions. Plus they are definitely playing decades late catchup in global media. since they exported very little until fairly recently, like the last 20 years at the most.
That's just how Japan works out. Lots and lots of things require an agreed upon cultural group approval before anyone can touch it. Try looking into the fricking nightmare that is architecture and preservation over there.
Why aren't aglæca more popular? English just took the word. It's literally just a word for monster. The myths themselves are different. Same for Tengu and Tiengau. The latter is a literal dog. Now yes, there are some Yokai that are originally Chinese (Kitsune for example), but a lot, maybe even the majority, are original.
I don't know what I hate more - weebs or the fact that Japan deserved to have them with its hard work, while Europeans do jack shit to preserve their own culture.
Europe as a whole barely makes any media approaching the level of Japan in a year. Japan just churns out way more comics, games, movies, and series that deal with their local folklore to the point where it's really well known world wide. No one in europe really bothers in the same way, nor to they have any kind of similar media empire to publish it and make it mainstream in the first place. It sucks.
France and Belgium have the second largest comic book market after Japan, they also have a fairly healthy animation market, but for some reason there are no fresh ideas in Europe, everything I have seen from Europe can be summed up in a simple description - an absolutely visual masterpiece with absolutely banal plot.
They are stuck with the same problem as the US. Only ever publishing the same old shit that they always have published since the 60s-70s while never ever letting anything new come along or last.
Have you tried checking independent comic artists? Big name publishers only pander to the lowest common denominator.
>Europe as a whole barely makes any media
Fun fact : they do. Just so little of it is translated into English.
Okay, what the Hell is that? And why is so little European media edited, especially the folklore of creatures and beings similar to Yokai in Japan?
That's Lou and her cat. It's a bédé about Lou and her single mother and ornery grand mother. It's far better then it has any right to be. I put it in Spoiler because this is a yokai thread, not a Ganker thread.
My point is that France, Spain, Italy, Germany and so on put out far more comics, books and films then you'd know if you just waited for translations to appear in the USA.
you really have no idea what the frick you're talking about
but that's typical of a weeb
>hile Europeans do jack shit to preserve their own culture
I wish more of it was lost, I don't care about buttfrickicus of shmeegria
>t.angry fat weeb noises
Europeans have no culture.
Now that's something. What's your explanation? I heard about Americans, but this?
Who's Zeus again? Or Mars? Or, wait. What's the name of that one Marvel hero? Can't be Thor, can it? Oh, and Baba Yaga isn't well known at all. How about Imps? Or elemental spirits? Dwarves? Elves? Faeries? European myth is everywhere. You just don't notice it because you're so used to seeing it.
Not him, but I see your point.
On the internet you mean? Yeah, that’s it.
>European myth is everywhere.
Not in my "western anime". Oh wait, we don't even have an analogue of anime and hundreds of weebs believe that katana and Japanese national motifs are the best in the world. And I can't blame them, West has nothing to offer except boring and banal superhero movies.
But we do have a Western equivalent of anime: Cal-Arts. It is the same homogenized shit as contemporary anime. And superheroes are pretty cool.
You didnt even try with this bait.
The truth isn't bait.
Are katanas even that good as swords? Or is it just a meme?
Meme. And the worst thing is that a completely false meme, in reality katana is heavier than European swords, has a worse quality of metal (the characteristic of local ores in Japan physically do not allow you to make high-quality steel) and was created for primitive hacking instead of skilful swordsmanship, European swords are superior to katana in all aspects, but do not have such PR machine as katana have.
They were fine for their time and place. But agreed, they're not nearly as good as European swords. Though for hacking? Hardly. Katanas couldn't withstand that sort of butchery. They're soft. They'd bend or break. They often did. There is martial arts behind them. Not better than European sword martial arts. Just different. I'd still bet on the European just because sword quality. One hit against a zweihander, a backsword, or a longsword and the katana is gone. Or God forbid against a sword breaker. The only sword that wouldn't break it is a rapier or an epee, maybe a saber, depending. But then, the former two are all about quick jabs in duels and defending yourself in a post armor period anyways, so they wouldn't really be useful in that scenario.
The problem is how katana and samurai are depicted in anime, movies and TTRPGs, the myth that katana is an elegant weapon of real swordsmen is stupid, but katana has a whole country that promotes this thing, meanwhile Europe treats its own past with disdain. And I cannot understand what is wrong with Europe and why people do not want to change anything.
Oh absolutely. The myth of the katana is, well, a myth. As an European, I can tell you it's not really disdain. Quite the opposite. We preserve it, the old buildings, the books, scrolls. We just don't export it. I can't speak for everyone, but at least here, we kinda accept that the past and our myths isn't something to be commercialized and exploited by an individual author or even the country. It's something to accept if it's bad, sometimes be proud of if it's good, and definitely learn from. But selling it just isn't something we do here. Again, can't speak for everyone, just my tiny country here in Central Europe.
I think, in part, that's why I don't really get Japan and China and the US with their exportation of culture and watering it down for consumption.
It's mostly a meme. They're pretty decent swords, pretty sharp, but not really all that better or worse than medieval european swords other than being slightly more resistant to chipping (Japan being metal poor needed to conserve their swords). What happened though is the Katana became the symbol of office for the Samurai in the Tokugawa shogunate while everyone else was banned from owning swords, so it got wrapped up in the Japanese mythos. That and after the invention of guns, for whatever reason european swordsmiths tried to reinvent the wheel and generational knowledge on medieval swordsmithing was lost, so during the age of discovery, european swords were notoriously shit and brittle, to the point that conquistadors were finding that the obsidian machetes of the people they were conquering were better than the swords they were getting. This cemented in european culture the idea that old sworsd are inherently superior, alongside a fascination with the weapons of 'culturally inferior' people as being more pure and in that ancient mold. So it's a combination of european myth-making and japanese myth-making.
I grew up in Scotland. Don't know what you mean, they love their local history. If anything the English accuse the Scots of liking it too much, since a lot of it is about killing the English (also reminder, the British national anthem still has a line about 'murderous Scots' and how we need to kill them all to defend the queen. The Scots keep asking for them to change that line and the English keep telling them no.)
Answer me the question, what is more often chosen by Scottish teenagers as a weapon of their characters - katana or claymore?
*shrug*
Last time I went to the games-workshop store on the Royal Mile there was a lot of Lord of the Rings stuff and a lot of WH40K stuff. Both british intellectual properties. Me and my sister painted a couple of elf-figurines. We did a short skirmish where she used chaos marines.
What about Irish, do they like their own history?
Don't really know, I've never been to ireland other than a quick stop in the airport. I do know they like fricking over the English as much as they can just like the Scots do. A big part of their identity is being Catholic though, as most of the rest of the isles are some form of protestant, which means they are a good deal to the right of Scotland on a number of issues. But you know, they tout the castles and the tourist circuit just like the rest of the isles, they like hyping up the celtic culture and all that. I do know that Irish Gaelic has seen a resurgence of use on the Internet where it had been a language on the verge of extinction. Kinda the difference between Ireland and Scotland is while Scotland had a lot of vicious infighting in it's history, it was mostly a unified kingdom that could afford throughout it's history to stave off English aggression (what finally brought them down was massive debt from a failed colonial venture in Panama, and this was while England was already under a personal union with the Scottish King). Meanwhile Ireland was filled with a bunch of independant minor nobles who never managed to unify the island against the English and so were gobbled up piecemeal. So no Irish version of Braveheart far as I know.
No
More like the rapier, a really good walking around town self defense weapon. Best used against unarmored opponents. Not so much a war weapon to be used in open battle against guys with better weapons and armor. it has about all the utility of a machete, which is a great self defense item against street thugs and thieves, not so handy against armored opponents in war.
Which is where 99% of the whole mystique comes from anyway. Most of their history is during peacetime when Samurai had little to do since the wars were long over and they only really used the swords against unarmored guys in the streets of towns. Also this was the time period of idle samurai having little else to do but write books, make poetry, and form up schools that also led to the whole katana mythology in the general public.
So, it might be useful against Yokai then. After all, I can’t think of any that really wear armor.
I know they're not really yokai but any thoughts on koropokuru?
The original oriental adventures splat used them as a playable race but they were more like reskinned dwarves than anything to do with actual koropokuru.
I’ve skimmed over the thread a bit and while I don’t claim to know more than some of the other anons, I still got some stuff I can offer.
Firstly, Japanese yokai are unique to them insofar as they have become entwined with their cultural identity. Every culture has their own mythology of course, but Japan has Yokai as an academic field you can enter in university, and a small but incredibly motivated cadre of experts who help perpetuate the study and preservation of the buggers.
Second, yokai are not merely “supernatural” or separate from religious pantheons like a lot of European mythology. Others have already pointed it out but yokai are essentially abandoned or forgotten kami. Kami can become yokai and yokai can be restored to kami- the only real difference between the two is wellbeing and consequently their disposition towards people. None of them are gods in our Western monotheistic sense- but could be compared to the concept of patron saints- you give them tribute and in return they might help you in some way regarding their key attribute(s). Again, broad strokes here.
Third, yokai are so abundant and diverse that trying to pigeonhole any of them into one definitive taxonomic collection is flat out impossible and furthermore, antithetical to their appeal. There are a handful of archetypes we can call ever-present: oni, kappa, kitsune, tanuki, tengu, etc, that invariably exist in some slight variation or other across the country and often in an everyday manner . Outside of these, however, yokai become so varied in their origins, locations, customs and “purpose” that they often only share their obscurity as an attribute, and as such cannot be readily quantified as post-Tolkien fey or cryptids.
Also, demons in Japanese mythology are not inherently evil- vicious, yes, but many a demon exists somewhere within Buddhism that, although ultimately unable to break out of Samsara, still serve the cause. (cont.)
Cont.d
For example, Tengu and most of their variants are almost always fallen Buddhist monks that although usually self-serving, may be moved to aid a traveler or monk who has displayed exceptional virtue.
Ashura also appear throughout Buddhism, having been a carryover from the religion’s origins in India. Ashura are mighty and terrifying, but ultimately serve as tragic figures- they experience passion and emotion in an elevated way none of us could understand, and while this means they are both capable of extreme acts of nobility and vengefulness alike, their incredible power and passion means they can never achieve nirvana and are fated to experience suffering in an equally extreme manner forever.
Demons also appear in Kabuki with the iconic mask not inherently as villains, but ruthless figures of incredible wisdom, cunning and insight into otherworldly plots. They are not necessarily evil, but in being much higher up the cosmic food chain than you or I, probably don’t have our best interests in mind when they decide to involve themselves in worldly affairs.
And I’m about gassed on the subject. Most of my knowledge comes from reading The Book of Yokai by Michael Dylan Foster back in December so feel free to pick me apart if it turns out I’m just parroting a hack.
Asura sounds like what they were referencing with Shura in Sekiro.
>but Japan has Yokai as an academic field you can enter in university,
folklore studies are common at most universities
in fact everything you said is common in folk lore around the world
you weebs want to make out Japan's folk lore as wholly special and unique but it really isn't
Why ARE we so fascinated with it? What’s so special for us about Japanese folklore that we’re so obsessed with it? Is it just anime and manga or something else?
>Is it just anime and manga
Yes, but the fact that anime morons do not understand how far from real folklore anime and manga are is maddening.
I think its just the eroticism, combined with Japanese history being more analogous to western history (with the feudalism). Japan has a similar obsession with fantasy Europe if you havent noticed, though they dont seem too interested in the scholarly aspect.
I think it's just country people want to stew in misery. I mean yeah, the country has been left behind with the advent of the service economy, but still theres other stuff to sing about. I mean good example, little nas x managed to get a top of the charts country song out, all he had to do was just put some fricking energy into it.
*exoticism
Oh absolutely. There's always some good stuff. But what's the old adage? Sturgeon's law? 90% of everything is crap?
>"unique and different"
They are?
Ignore OP, no they're not. Japan imported the myth from chinese, but the former got more exposure than the latter.
It would be the case if they've imported it wholecloth and then also did nothing with it, too, preserving it in original form. First didn't happen and second also didn't happen. It's akin of insisting everyone speaks Latin in Europe, because they've borrowed Latin alphabet.
Forgot to elaborate further, I mean the basic concept of the myth. Nip just change or add their own flavor to it. So it's akin like "Made in China, Modified by Japan'
Okay, and how did they do that? I know that China and Japan both have fox spirits for example, but that’s about it.
For reference to say japan just copied china is like saying England just copies France, the two have similar cultures because they are neighbors and have influenced each other over centuries.
Now buddhism and its influences were imported from India into china and then into japan for one. Most of China classical works made their way to japan too, hence all the journey to the west references in dragonball.
A big parallel I see though is how enlightenment=magic. The idea that someone can attain so much enlightenment that it appears as magic to us uninformed. This applies to humans with wuxia wizards and samurai who can cut through mountains they are just that good with swords. But also the idea that animals or household objects can achieve magic powers if they live to a hundred, a hundred years attaining enlightenment through prayer or life experience.
No. Im sure OP is a stinky weeaboo who thinks Japan is a magical and 10000% original place who did everything first.
1. They are Japanese as opposed to regular Tolkien fantasy
2. They are invisible, so you can include a Mcguffin in your campaign that can reveal them
3. They aren't actively dangerous to humans and prefer to just annoy them
Does anyone have any suggestions for trying to create new types of Yokai? And what are some existing kinds of Yokai that could be used more often?
There are some interesting elemental ones. Kamaitaichi are a throuple of ferrets with wind powers that will alternatively cut you up, see you up, and heal you up. There is also a type of lightning dog creature, you've likely seen the motif a lot in anime.
If you wanted to come with a new one imagine an animal that could be found in japan, that lives to a hundred and reaches enlightenment growing an extra tail. Also a lot of youkai are spooky women. Sadako from the Ring is an archetype. A women (though sometimes a man) gets some massive grievance done upon her (in Sadako's case drowned in a well by buttholes) and their ghost gets a murder grudge on the world. Usually the actual perpetrators get off Scott free and theirs no solution to deal with them other than hope they dont notice you. A more recent example is a local legend of a woman getting cut in half after being run over by a train. She survived long enough to find one of the train attendants crawling to them, but the guy freaked the frick out running to the hills and left her to die, so her ghost now haunts the railway. Another recent spooky lady is Hashuku Sama, who is an 8-foot tall pale woman that might have sex with you.
Why do they do that? It seems kind of pointless to hurt someone then heal them right afterwards.
I assume the idea is if you find one and it sees you it gets spooked and attacks, but doesn't want to hurt you do patches you up. Alternatively the three ferrets have different personalities.
The main thing I see is how Japanese writers can manage to keep their folklore mostly intact and add them to stories without too much trouble.
Western shit is too damn codified to Tolkien inspired DnD stuff and hardly ever breaks from that mold ever. Elves almost never get to be their folklore variant of small invisible people. Goblins never get to be invisible little troublemakers that steal food and children. Dwarves are never the soot covered guys that turn to stone in sunlight. And species that never appeared in a Tolkien book never get to be used ever.
That's an outsider's perspective anon. Explain to me how it's less of a perversion where a teacup tsukogami is portrayed as a busty blonde English maid.
Where was this? What’s the name of the anime?
Himamari something. It rhymed with a japanese word for talisman.
Theres this lightning dog creature. It's not a specific animal, but closest to a dog, you'll have seen versions of it crop up in anime. I think Tengu also have some wind powers. Also like in china, dragons are associated with water rather than fire
Mythanon here again.
Raiju? A... Kinda sorta familiar/pet of Raijin that burrows into your bellybutton during storms. It's usually shown as a dog or wolf, but is really more like a... Chimera type creature.
Tengu do have fans that make winds.
The Japanese Ryuu are also associated with water and rain, but Dragons are far less important in Japan than in China where they were the symbol of the Emperor. I mean the four Ao brothers that controlled the four seas arw basically gods in their own right. Long Mu I think was her name? The mother of Dragons. Her myth is basically Daenerys' story. Found a stone, turns out it's an egg, enter Dragons. After that it's a bit different. No conquest, just a shit ton of good done for the people. Oh, also carp jumping waterfalls to become Dragons where in Japan it's koi.
There is one Dragon type in Japan that's basically a seashell that turns into a Dragon when it's old enough. It's in the yokai page. Shussebora. Had to find it.
Because that is not the standard requirement that everyone in all media across the board must follow with someone genuinely making a standard folklore version as a total outsider that hardly anyone in the audience would know what they are looking at.
Because she was the spirit of a tea cup originally *from* England.
Omamori Himari is the name.
https://yokai.com/kaichigo/
Wait certain traditional games co.e with a soul that can challenge you?
How did this not get the Yu-Gi-Oh treatment?
It KINDA did in Yu-Gi-Oh! itself. The original Manga had a LOT of games, not just the card game. Though not that game itself, a similar game they call Dragon block/Dragon cards in season 0/manga. Seriously, if you haven't, watch season 0 and read the manga. It's super fricked. Yami straight up mercs dudes.
I meant in having to fight a God of games thing but yeah. I mean can you go against the yokai soul of a matching game.
Besides Yuki-Onna and maybe Kitsune, what are some particularly interesting kinds of Yokai with elemental aspects? I believe that someone mentioned wind weasels, for example.
Hot Wheels
https://yokai.com/katawaguruma/
https://yokai.com/wanyuudou/
Reddit tourist detected
All I care about is the fact that giant snakes are apparently revered and all I want to do now is visit a snake shrine with my leucistic ball python.
http://kankou.iwakuni-city.net/itn/shirohebi-shrine
Beautiful place. Wanted to go this year.
Youkai have a unique quality that gaijin will never understand.
t. moronic Nipponese
Nothing. They're just Japanese-flavored fairies.
Anyone remember these Kappa Tengu from TMNT 2003?
Oh yeah, those guys. Real blast from the past there.
If Britain has faeries, Japan has yokai.
NOT the same thing. Frick off bitgay
You should first define what you think is a typical monster.
Because you're probably american, i assume you mean the stuff you have seen in hollywood films and d&d monster manual.
The reason why these japanese monsters feel more alien to you is because they're from a culture that is largely unfamiliar to you. You're probably fascinated by them because of this reason.
All the cultures in the world have their monsters. In some places, like Europe, the stories of monsters have spread all over because of trade, pilgrims and whatnot. But you're sure to find that there are cultural flavors to those creatures depending on the region.
Japan is far off from Europe and North America, and there was no trade, and the stories stayed in Japan, and as you now discover them they seem alien to you.
Why wasn’t there trade? Was it because Japan was an island nation, or was there more to it than that?
Japan was for a... Relatively long time a vassal state of China. When they became independent they became independent. Completely. Eventually the Mongols took over and tried to attack Japan, and failed. So that was a no. And then the Sengoku Jidai happened and after that Japan closed down until they sorted out their own shit.
As for trade with Europe specifically... Yea it's far away. Though there was trade between China and Rome, most trade stopped at Parthia due to a variety of reasons, but one of them was the ludicrous Parthians taxes, so it was easier to sell to the Parthians who sold to Rome and take the winnings than try to sell directly to Rome. Though some adventurous souls did. There's a whole book/diary about a trip from a guy who did just that. Link to the translation below. And Pliny the elder lamented this.
For America, there was just no interest in sailing East. Partially due to the Sengoku Jidai. If there was and China and Japan did sail East and landed on the West Coast, who knows how history would be today.
https://depts.washington.edu/silkroad/texts/weilue/weilue.html
There was plenty of trade with Japan and mainland Asia. Their period of isolation was under the Tokugawa Shogunate, which did so as a response to colonialism. For context, during the Sengoku Jidai, western traders supplied various samurai clans with guns, usually if they nominally converted to Christianity. The Tokugawa's taking over after a century and a half of civil war, not only hunted down and melted all the swords they could, and tore down all the castles they could to prevent another civil-war, also outlawed this gun trade, and Christianity itself (ironically crucifying many japanese converts).
It was a fear (and not an unfounded one) that christian missionaries could be used as a means to infiltrate and colonize Japan. But it was believed if Japan completely isolated themselves they'd be a hedgehog essentially. Too spiky and not worth the trouble of taking out and turning into a colony. That was until the forced-reopening of Japan, or as it's known in Japan 'the Black Ship incident' in which America showed up with modern steampowered ironclads with the unspoken message of 'we could colonize you at any time, and it would be laughably easy to do so', which set off a series of events that lead to the Meiji Restoration.
But even during that period were the Dutch. Who were relatively cool on the whole colonizing thing, who were given a single island (formerly a peninsula) to trade out of, which was the sole window to the outside world Japan had. Not just western science and medicine, but also just then modern events of the world (like the American Revolution). It was a small handful of 'Dutch-Learning Scholars' (as study of the outside world was called) who lead Japan's westernization.
(cont.)
Prior to that though, as I mentioned there was a thriving trade in the Sengoku Jidai to various samurai clans importing guns and missionaries. There was the famous case of Yasuke the Black Samurai who was bodyguard to Oda Nobunaga himself brought over by the Portugese (initially Oda assumed that Yasuke was an elaborate hoax and demanded he be brought before him. Then upon seeing a six-foot tall black guy decided this was an elaborate joke and just a portugese man in blackface and ordered him stripped. Seeing he was black all the way down, he ordered Yasuke bathed to prove this, and upon still being black, Oda became taken with him, bought him off the Portuguese and made him his bodyguard).
Some other european powers dipped their toes into Japan, but it was mostly the Portugese and Dutch. And of course there was trade with Korea and Japan. The island of Tsushima in particular for most of it's history was a major stopping point for trade between Korea and Japan, with many in mainland Japan seeing the people of Tsushima as more Korean than Japanese, but they were at different times given monopolies on trade with Korea. In particular a lot of ideas were imported from China into Japan, such as their early writing system, civil-service, eastern philosophies, and buddhism.
>But even during that period were the Dutch
they also still traded with specific Korean and Chinese merchant concerns
>What makes the yokai unique and different from typical monsters?
They are Japanese
I thought the gimmick was that they were Japanese.
I don't have much to offer here but I've heard from a friend that it's very much a White Expact Guy Living In Japan thing to write a Book about Yokai so you don't get forced out of the country by the residency/expat rules. So that's kind of funny.
Ashuras are cool, good fodder for a greek tragedy like story.
The what rules? Anyway, can you please expand on the ashura thing?
>Ashuras
What, like that guy from Soul Eater? Also, speaking of, what are some cool weapon Yokai?
You name it. Any item that has lovingly been taken care of for 100 years is almost guaranteed to become a yokai.
Unless it uses electricity. Electricity explicitly prevents the formation of a tsukiyomi (which is the explanation for why you don't see them often nowadays). Granted only a few weapons do use electricity.
It'd be interesting though if we reach 2040, and a bunch of guns from WW2 start gaining sentience and want to bomb pearl-harbor again.
The items have to be hand-made, so that won't be happening either
I don't recall hearing that rule. I mentioned earlier in the thread seeing a tsukiyomi that was a british teacop from the industrial era, pretty sure those weren't handmade in that era.
>anime reference
>mattering
>hey what do the japanese think of their own mythology?
>lets look at things the japanese have made.
It's on the same tier as looking at a shortstack goblin thread here on /tg/ while looking into goblin myths
>I don't have much to offer here but I've heard from a friend that it's very much a White Expact Guy Living In Japan thing to write a Book about Yokai so you don't get forced out of the country by the residency/expat rules. So that's kind of funny.
Wait, it's that the same guy who created this?
How might Yokai change and interact if they follow Japanese immigration around the world? Like to Hawaii, for example?
You know that's something I've always wondered. And you know, despite being an obviously easy concept to exploit, I've only seen one thing that follows through on the concept, the cartoon American-Dragon Jake Long, where the title character isn't just a son of a chinese immigrant family, he is also the son of a long history of chinese dragons who emigrated to New York, alongside all other manner of fantasy creatures from across the world. And he has to balance not just his chinese heritage and american upbringing, but the fact that he has a dragon heritage he has few people in his life to learn from (so he can fight evil), with the fact that most of his friends are humans who aren't really in the know about magic.
Anyway, I would imagine Yuki-Onna would probably also live in parts of siberia, and northern-korea and China- it'd be interesting to explore Yuki-Onna leftover in Sakhalin (the southern tip was part of Japan before seized by the Soviets in WW2- alongside the Kurils). Kitsune have regional variants in China and Korea already (in Korea they are more likely to murder you, and in China more likely to marry you).
Also for some weird reason I think the nation with the largest japanese expat community is Brazil.
>Also for some weird reason I think the nation with the largest japanese expat community is Brazil.
What are some cool Brazilian monsters they can interact with them?
I think there's a were-jaguar, that's more like a giant man with a jaguar head. I know South America has some particularly odd monsters, but I don't know many about them.
Sounds pretty based. Does anyone know anything more please?
Frick off already, bumpgay
What are some good ideas for the backstory of a Japanese inspired setting? Here's what I'm thinking thus far, but I want to fill it out some more-
>Humans settle into different tribes of the major islands, but the gods invent an emperor to unite them after they spend too much time killing each-other
>A classical era sets in focused mostly on poetry, and worshipping the gods, as the Emperor sits back in his palace and lets priests act as regional governors
>these positions become hereditary, and the Emperor's power wanes and the priesthood becomes corrupt
>Eventually the military wages a war against the priesthood to restore the Emperor, and succeeds
>the warriors of the military becomes the Samurai, but over time too, their positions become herditary and feudalism sets in
And some other ideas I have in mind would be 'the thirteen invasions' a series of offensive and defensive wars by the samurai amongst their neighbors, who take the place of mongolia, korea, china, the Ainu and Okinawans, that take place over the course of a century I was thinking.
A big pirate war in a period of golden age of piracy in in the region.
In the mythic past, a series of wars against Kaiju sized monsters.
Various uprisings by upstart samurai clans.
But I was thinking that just prior to the setting start date would be where the Shogun in response to civil unrest resorts to more and more brutal methods of repression, until he essentially becomes an Oni/Demon-King. This prompts every other samurai clan bar a few loyalists to band together and overthrow him. And while they succeed in doing so, this smashes central authority on the islands, and the samurai coalition starts infighting about who gets to be in charge now, until a 'warring states' period erupts with the throne of the Shogun up for grabs.
Hey look at this
Umi Bozu are pretty cool and could probably serve as an alternative to ship encounters that isn't "pirates" or "suddenly, kraken"
Umibozu look better without shoulders, they look unnatural and unnerving
Did Japan even have an equivalent to a kraken in folklore? And what other yokai could we use for this?
They're nippy innit?
They are kind of goofy, which in a way makes them scarier, because they aren't adhering strictly to "this is the criteria for being scary". The most memorable monsters have something goofy about them. The alien from the movie Alien is literally a bunch of sex organs and high heels. Predator has a snake vaginia for a mouth with fishnets and dreads, chuckie is a literally baby doll, King Kong likes human boobies and is basically a reverse furry.
How is Dracula goofy then? The accent maybe?
Last Samurai is based on a historic counter-revolution against westernization- hence why the government ends the movie mowing down the samurai with machine-guns. So that would have been after the removal of the Tokugawa, and the opening of Japan, and the end of it's isolation.
Also I'm misremembering the name on the object Yokai.
Well yes, the last battle is vaguely based on Shiroyama. That battle wasn't that one sided as far as I'm aware. But there was a guy they based the character on, Jules Brunet.
More or less what
said. It's a way of saying "only we are good enough for ourselves, and outsiders aren't". Also, to be fair, Amaterasu kind of kicked him out after he killed the goddess of plenty. Or Susano'o did that in some versions. I actually prefer the idea of Susano'o doing it because it's hilarious to me. Guy gets kicked, reconciles, comes back, sees her puking up delicious fude, kills her, gets kicked again. It's just s funny image. But the Tsukiyomi one is more popular.
Also, gods don't really have anyone else. Everyone's related. And unlike with Humans, no issues there. Unless you count Hephaestos, but he was made by Hera alone, and/or her cheating depending on the source, though I do think that one's a late Roman/early Christian version. Also he was thrown from Olympus. That definitely contributed to him being even more misshapen. Though funny thing, he was actually NOT married to Aphrodite in the Iliad but Aglaea, one of the three Graces, the one of beauty I believe. Hesiod and Renaissance writers later explained this as his divorce from Aphrodite in an attempt to create a Pan-Hellenic religion (which didn't exist), and Victorian writers kind of forgot about it.
What are some good stories about the Japanese gods? I know the story of Susano'o and the storm god (and how he's an butthole, which makes sense when you remember what japanese typhoon's are like), and killed one of Amaterasu's favored atttendents, skinned her, and tossed the body of the dinner table causing her to go to her hikki cave. As a result Susano'o was banished, and he wandered Japan until he came upon an eight-headed serpent (Orochi) that was being ritually fed princesses for each-head. Whereupon instead of getting into a giant massive battle with lightning stuff instead, left eight barrels of Saki to get the serpent drunk and then cut off it's heads while it slept. Whereupon he found the legendary sword the Kusonagi (Grasscutter) which he gifted to Amaterasu for forgiveness.
Also the gods had to get the Goddess of Beauty to do a strip show to get Amaterasu out of her Hikki cave, which was a period where there was no sun, as the Sun God was hiding in a cave.
Susano'o got better after being kicked out. Humbled. Mostly. He still had a temper. Funny think about his name though. It can be spelled a few ways. Susano'o, Susanowo, or Susa-no-ou. The last specifically would be translated as Susa the King. Though he's not really responsible for Typhoons. That's Raijin and Fujin. Sometimes. It depends. For stories I'd suggest reading the Kojiki and Nihon Shoki. It's essentially the Shinto Bible. Not really. It's not the word of God, it's not the only source of it, and local myths and legends and variants on them are actually just as valid in Shinto.
The Archive has the Nihongi translation (alternate name for Nihon Shoki) for free, and you can find the Kojiki PDF by Googling it.
Well, yes. But anon referenced an energy that accumulates. That isn't really a thing as far as I'm aware. It's simply age.
It's also very common in Animistic religions in general. Not necessarily exactly like Tsukumegami, but that they possess a spirit, a will. That's why some First Tribes burn clothes, wood, and books possessed by the deceased, believing that a part of their spirit is in them, but metal and electronics can be purified. Though First Tribe religions really range from Totemism to Shamanism to Animism to Henoism and combinations thereof, depending which area and Tribe, so it's hard to say anything about them in generals.
>husband/brother
Gross. Why do so many mythologies have so much incest? Especially since there’s a certain Greek myth that shows it was much more negatively viewd among mortals.
Firstly remember that most gods aren't imagined as being strictly humans. They tend to viewed as forces of nature that are often given human forms either for artistic representation or so they can better communicate with mortals. Like the Greeks believed that if the gods showed you their true forms it would atomize you on the spot.
Secondly when coming up with the lineage of gods, well gods tend to have to come from all the same source if they are 'your' gods, and they tend not to marry mortals as that produces demigods not gods, so the family tree ends up more of a trunk as a result.
They're quite silly.
the word he was looking for is tsukumogami, artifact spirits that are formed when the "god" inside a man-made object awakens after 100 years. originally the word what the name of a specific animated tea container that, according to the myth, matsunaga hisahide gifted to oda nobunaga to negotiate peace
>originally the word what the name of a specific animated tea container that, according to the myth, matsunaga hisahide gifted to oda nobunaga to negotiate peace
So it only started happening around that time? And are there similar beings in other cultures?
You mean transforming into a monster?
An object turning "alive" and having a will of its own is a very common superstition about weapons of all kinds. Even now some /k/ gay felt a particular gun in his collection shoots energy up his arm as its cold to the touch, or alternatively a different weapon is just guiding his aim as if someone else is doing it for him. Turning into an actual being that moves around and shit is a different thing.
Wait, people still believe in that kind of thing? What are some of the more interesting stories that you’ve heard?
Nothing particularly interesting outside the common pattern that the "evil" weapons have an uncanny similarity to being exposed to radioactive material. So radiation = evil if you wanna go down that route. There is no particular look of these weapons either, a gun looks like a gun you could only tell when you touch them.
I'd heard it that it's the household object just learning to be animated on it's own accord due to accruing enough knowledge when surviving for a hundred years.
They're just Japanese Fair Folk.
Are they weak to iron then? If not, what are their weaknesses?
Depends. Yokai aren't weak to iron by necessity, but can be harmed and killed by weapons if they're physical, and sometimes if they're spirits. They are often weak to rituals and prayer, though not necessarily killed by them. Merely passing on, being purified, or just driven away. Others, like the Gashadokuro, are completely invincible.
Completely invincible? It has no weaknesses at all?