How would (You) save the hardcore stealth genre?
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How would (You) save the hardcore stealth genre?
How would (You) save the hardcore stealth genre?
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Remove quicksave.
Filcher is actually great. All it's really missing is voice acting. That would bump it up from (good) amateur love project to serious title.
The no-quicksave and score metric is great but the levels tend to feel a little bit small, otherwise the game would be too difficult. Maybe a one-time use checkpoint item with bigger maps would perfect it, or maybe it's fine already. The only serious complaints is that the achievements are bugged.
The dev should step up production and scale (and marketing) for a sequel
>one-time use checkpoint item
honestly the plantable tree in Ultima isn't a bad idea, it'd fit well in a stealth game, especially if you had to hide it from guards, etc.
the crouch slide is amazing I kinda wish Thief had it
>Average have to be creeping on tiles for 20 mins since guards are alert level 2 enjoyer
Frick off, it's gonna ruin experimentation
>experimentation
You mean shitters coping at getting caught and not just rolling with it.
I played through thief 1 with no midmission saves(well except escape) and I generally jump at the chance of a game offering coherent beginning, middle, climax stakes THAT SAID I don't think that mixes particularly well with conceit of most stealth games, you being a slick professional that doesn't leave a trace. When you play without quicksaves and you get spotted you feel like a frickup, even if you survive the game is kind of a wash at that point like you're locked into an F grade. What does make rolling with the punches and scrapping through by the skin of your teeth satisfying is when just plain survival is the focus, not so much the discretion. The tomb levels in thief were great fun to complete in one run, the mission with human guards on the other hand became an elongated benny hill sequence.
Try Filcher. It does the idea really well. You have a blackjack and tranquilizer to knock out guards (in the old no killing idea). The levels ARE smaller so if a run does shit itself late game it's only 15 minutes washed out and not 40 or so. The tension is great in my opinion. I would love to play xcom and shit without savescumming but xcoms give you so many dangerous plot-point curveballs the first playthrough basically requires some scummery.
>oh capturing an enemy mid mission ACTUALLY spawns an elite enemy wow I'm glad I did that in the middle of a fight lol
Yeah, something like this but only allow it in certain areas. Not bonfire bullshit but an old timey crash 1 checkpoint
That's frustrating as hell in MGS games, though.
you're gonna filter all the LGSgays if you do that tho
Thief' would suck balls without quicksave.
>rope arrows without quicksave
>mantling without quicksave
>ladders
no thank you. this is why console games started "streamlining" everything the moment they moved from saves to checkpoints.
or they could just fix ladders/mantling/rope arrows so they're don't randomly fail 50% of the time? then get rid of quicksave
Is there any game with that level of freedom which didn't have jank and glitches sometimes? Rope arrows work on any eligible surface. Same with mantling. It's impossible to QA every possible thing the player will do. Of course, you could fix it:
>you press X to get on a ladder which now snaps you into a canned animation until you get off on the other side
>you can only attach rope arrows or mantle at predefined points
Hence why console slop is always like this.
mantling in prey was fine for example, Thief's climbing is just badly coded (it's especially glitchy on modern fast PC)
>rope arrows
What the absolute frick are you talking about? Why would you ever need to quick-save rope arrows? Why would you even need it for ladders? The only thing that gets weird is mantling failing sometimes but it isn't even something you need to save spam over.
new to Thief huh?
No. The only way you have rope arrows "failing" is if you frick up and confuse a non-wood texture for a wooden one.
Worst idea ever
By making more?
>splinter cell
>hardcore
What does this even mean?
hardcore stealth because of the mechanics (sound detection, light detection, different speed)
In Splinter Cell Chaos Theory, enemies are hyper-aware, completely paranoid and kill you in two hits. Thief is much easier and has a lot more leeway in mistakes.
The hard vs soft core scale in stealth games is basically how freely and quickly you can move
So Thief & SC are on the harder scale because you generally have to move slowly and you only have limited ways to defeat the enemies
>I know both games can be played fast but the INTENT is to play them slowly and that's how casuals will play them
Then a bit further down the scale you have MGS1 & 2 which are much faster-paced stealth games, your movement options are still limited but you aren't slowly crouching around, you're able to run and quickly headshot guards
Then in the very soft scale you have Dishonored, where you can instantly delete tons of guards and dance around them with your various abilities
You can insert lots of stealth games along this continuum
>The hard vs soft core scale in stealth games is basically how freely and quickly you can move
Yes but not only, I see it as how "true" it is to a real stealth experience with sound and light detection (not him)
Enter Shinobido where you can move fast as frick and kill everyone but also eat shit and ruin everything if you don't know what you're doing.
>Uploading files from your IP range has been blocked due to abuse.
Black folk
>So Thief & SC are on the harder scale because you generally have to move slowly and you only have limited ways to defeat the enemies
MGS3 EE is way harder than Thief or SC on their max difficulties.
you cant save it, the problem is not the genre, its the players.
I want more games like Sniper Elite
get someone who makes good levels, get someone who makes an interesting setting, copy and adapt the old games mechanics
where do you find these people if there's no interesting stories in vidya nor enough stealth games to show good level design
Find a good writer
The rest will trickle down
Another Sly Cooper please
light, sound and camouflage should all matter. enemies should be basically too much to handle therefore stealth being the only reasonable option.
Make a campaign for https://www.thedarkmod.com/main/
like the black parade? but what if you prefer modern settings
thankfully chaos theory changed that
how so?
you can still be seen when you're in shadows, you need to be in a darker place for them to not see you (sometimes it doesn't really translate on what you can see on screen because everything is made clearer for the player to spatialize itself)
The joke is also about green flashing night vision goggles you have literally popping out.
the joke is that your dark silhouette still stands out against a brighter background. sam standing in a dark hallway with a bright room at the end = guard can't see it because guards can't interpret silhouettes
chaos theory doesn't change that at all..
>the joke is that your dark silhouette still stands out against a brighter background. sam standing in a dark hallway with a bright room at the end = guard can't see it because guards can't interpret silhouettes
And did you read what I said? it's ALSO talking about the bright green lights that pop out in the darkness.
the triangular goggles at least serve an excellent visual tell for where fisher is and what direction he is facing, so they can be excused
that's the point of them, they don't actually glow in universe. if you look in a mirror, sam's goggles are dull, and looking at spies in spies vs. mercs, the goggles don't glow.
>guards can't interpret silhouettes
I guess it would be annoying getting spotted for something you could forget about, and how would they program something like this?
It makes it cooler
At least Thief had the keeper training excuse to why is Garret invisible
Copeeeee
Thief is alive and well. TBP is basically Thief 3, the only criticism is the insane reverb they left on Hume's voice, when he's supposed to narrating his thoughts to the player. The echo sounds weird.
In terms of level design and writing, it's on par with TTLG.
the black parade is RIDICULOUSLY good. had it released back in the day it would've easily been a mission pack they could legitimately sell.
Yeeeaahh I need to get into Thief FMs, looks like an extremely comfy sub-hobby.
This.
I'm only 2 levels in and I'd say it has surpassed Thief 1/2 honestly.
The red terminal is under attack.
Ping ping.. ping ping... ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping ping
Will always remember u double agent
slow it back down. somehow convince the industry to stop shoehorning limp-wristed stealth segments in every other game.
despite all of this, blacklist was still a major step towards stealth compared to conviction, even if still casual and whatnot
yeah they were overcorrecting after conviction did everything it could to not be a splinter cell game
Hell no! Its passable stealth game on its own,but as SC title? Absolutely trash!
wouldn't say trash because I had my fun with it replaying it sometimes, but we agree that it shouldn't be called splinter cell at all
It’s like a collage of everything wrong with the early 2010s.
how is this as far as stealth is concerned?
Pretty great until you get to the tavern and its less about sneaking for a minute.
Haven't tried the newest update.
I hate Early Access so much. It looks promising, but I am not gonna buy a half finished game. Same with Shadows of Doubt
worst thing is it's only about 20% done, so it will be atleast late 2025 until the full release, that practice of releasing 10% finished game as "early access" should be banned
>I hate Early Access so much
Why? I see it more like a way for the game to gain money to sustain the development and for people that pay the game to "shape" how the final version will be (if you don't considerate scam early access games)
I've played both Gloomwood and Shadows of Doubt in EA, and Gloomwood fills me with hope for a great game (maybe 2 years down the line) while SoD was a big disappointment
Imagine if thief but you're making tnt traps and use looney toon logic to fool the enemies.
It's pretty fun, haven't played the tavern update though.
theif is far more than just stealth, it's strongers point is atmosphere and a sense of place
Rate the upcoming contestants to save the genre :
>Covert Ultra
Fast paced terrorist-hunt with stealth
>DataJack 2020
Isometric immersive sim for autists
>Serpens Eternal Thievery
Thief but you can rewind time
>Intravenous II
Splinter Cell and Hotline Miami but now with gun customization and more ""imsim"" elements and seemingly better stealth
>Corpus Edax
Melee RPG Immersive Sim
>Core Decay
Boomer Shooter with Immersive Sim elements and stealth seemingly like Deus Ex
>The Directorate: The Spy Who Killed A Saint
Top Down cartoony James Bond
Eternal Thievery
>Thief but you can rewind time
But saveloading already exists?
II
>Splinter Cell and Hotline Miami but now with gun customization and more ""imsim"" elements and seemingly better stealth
I hope so, the first game was okay but I wouldn't replay it
I would bet my left nut that not one of these has sound propagation like Thief, and at least 30% of them don't even have surfaces matter
All extremely based
DataJack, Intravenous 2 and Directorate > the others, because first person = worst person
>mfw I haven't heard about ANY of those
Doing god's work, anon.
>the original Xbox Splinter Cell games are backwards compatible
>still listed on the store
>even currently on sale
>haven't been able to actually buy them for the last year or so
anyone got an explanation for this bullshit?
I just wanted to try out the better version of Double Agent.
hardcore?
Add goblins
is it worth playing this if I didn't like the first Styx? barely got 30 minutes in, felt ridiculously unpolished
It's more moneyed
Yes? Best stealth games since 2010 imo. Especially second game,and i heard the third one is coming out!
>be sneaky goblin
>starts quoting Toy Story pixar movie and other modern day le reddit humor
I uninstalled at that point
The 2 most important things in a stealth game are
>Well designed levels
and
>a responsive and smart AI that reacts to the player in a believable way
Almost every new stealth game gets one of these 2 aspects wrong
what makes a well designed stealth level?
>a responsive and smart AI that reacts to the player in a believable way
impossible to do, the A.I needs to be consistent to be fun to most people which means it needs to act dumb or samey most of the time, also making a smart AI would probably be tense in terms of the money you put into it for the returns (also would probably need a fricking big PC)
>because first person = worst person
no first person is based and awesome for immersion
more options to get away, balance this around a multilevel alert system like MGS but less forgiving. Levels 1-5
>1. youre a ghost, nobody knows youre there
>2. somethings up, not sure what or who, but something
>3. something dangerous is happening, and people should be ready
>4 (2.5). you are here, maybe not dangerous, but you shouldnt be here
>5 (3.5). you are here and dangerous, eliminate
Once someone sees you after registering that someone has died/been incapacitated there should be no way to deescalate to Level 2 or 1. The player should have tools to slip away but now that everyone is alert it will be considerably harder to slip in and out of places with guards now posted up at chokepoints and aggressively patrolling
Splinter Cell Blacklist.
I agree
This was sort of my problem with No One Lives Forever, where if you get caught once the rest of the level becomes just a regular shooter. Also really annoying alarm sound
there's some serious problems with this idea though:
1) it feels cheap if 1 little mistake makes the entire level harder
2) it makes difficulty snowball, which is kinda the opposite of what you want (e.g. quicksave is a safety valve for difficulty, letting the player make the game easier at any time to handle rough spots)
3) the devs would have to design the entire game twice, once for ghost state and once for someone's-around-alerted state. Not really an efficient use of their time, I'd rather have more levels instead
4) it's annoying as a player if you miss out on the "real" layout and enemy setup, just because you alerted 1 enemy early on
Are we still pretending that Thief 3 is bad?
>pretending
It's telling that even the release of THI4F didn't redeem this game
i seen lots of people say “maybe thief 3 wasn’t so bad after all”
It's not bad. It's just a downgrade from Thief 2 in every way except visuals. I still adore it and would put it in the top 10 stealth games of all time.
>tonnes of weapons
>BETTER NOT USE THEM OR YOU GET PENALIZED
pure stealth has always been dogshit. stealth action is more fun.
the problem is right there. Why do I need 80 variants of a fricking ak47, why do I need 6 tiers of AK47 ranging from shitty to ELITE. What if instead of 1000 SMGs, you give me a sound bomb, or a jar that I throw that shatters and attracts attention, why do I need gogogadget rocketarm and super sniper and giant robot when the ai is so braindead I can dance around them and they wont see me. MGSV will never cease to disappoint
>give tools to people who want to have fun and shoot everyone
>give tools for people who want to stealth the game
>AHHHH WHY IS THE GAME FORCING ME TO SHOOT PEOPLE?!
>Sam's NVG lenses glowing bright green so everyone can see him
This is literally unplayable as a hasnods
we can't, the stealth genre is already perfected by the holy trinity.
is Hitman even stealth? seems more like subterfuge
I like metal gear as well, but this made me chuckle
it's crazy to me how thief and mgs came out in the same year. thief feels lightyears ahead of mgs1, which barely innovated on metal gear 2 in terms of stealth gameplay. I know thief was a pc game and could do a lot more, but still.
As did Tenchu. Jesus, 1998 was a crazy year.
I always liked that stealth is entirely optional in Tenchu. Yeah, you want to stealth for the rating, but it's not like you can't finish it by just slaughtering everyone.
Why haven't you played Tenchu yet, Ganker?
I love Tenchu. A few months ago I tried Shinobido and it is just as excellent. The mercenary system is awesome.
intro upscale
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=olnSUt9w6cY&pp=ygUXdGVuY2h1IHJlbWFzdGVyZWQgaW50cm8%3D
Why the frick do people keep bringing up MGS in stealth game threads? Firstly, MGS is less a game than a movie. Only about 35% of a playthrough is interactive. Almost half of the duration of what actually is interactive is forced combat. We're talking about a product that's something like 15% stealth gameplay. That's probably comparable to Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 or something. Is that a stealth game too then?
The larger problem is people with a grudge against MGS pretending it didn't do the things it did. It's one of the more insufferable circlejerks on this board. You're all moronic.
MGS3 has much better stealth mechanics, MGS1 is more memorable as being one of the first cinematic games.
>they detect you out of light from insanely far away
meant to say, a combination of far away and insanely fast
every stealth game should have a metal gear solid tranquilizer gun
i don't care if it makes the game piss easy its satisfying as frick
>really not hardcore
alright, let's say true stealth then
>I played a bit of the alpha, its rather kino
Same and like you I hope we'll see more diversity in the levels like the police station in the alpha, I've seen that there will be some kind of social stealth mission in a nightclub and I hope there will be more stuff like this
>The player should have tools to slip away
what if you could threaten a guard (by catching him off guard) to take his talkie and say that the threat has been eliminated? would only work once of course
>I hope we'll see more diversity in the levels like the police station in the alpha
this may sound like a massive reach but im calling it
Do you see that "Intravenous : Mercenarism" prequel that has you playing as a mercenary named Gideon? im 99% sure Gideon will be a bossfight in IV2
I haven't really thought about this but it could be, since you play as 2 characters I wonder how it would play out if they reunite or something like that
>since you play as two characters
i dont get this part, what does Sean have to do with Gideon?
It doesn't need saving. It just has to go back to being niche where it belongs. Hardcore stealth simply isn't for your average played.
>Death to Spies
That's actual stealth Hitman rather than it being just an option.
tell people to buy the styx games
hope they make another styx game
it was good
I just want a game that blends Splinter Cell with modern Hitman design
>Big-ass level
>Dark/nighttime
>Multiple ways of achieving one of the many objectives you can tackle upon entering.
>Lambert yelling in your ear for setting off a single alarm
Let the player to control the experience from Assault to Extreme European.
And yes, Black Widow is the perfect character for a stealth game.
garbage, let me fix that
>close up that zipper
>add a mask, probably overall hood too
there, great female stealth character
I love masks. You have a great taste.
Coomshit
Chaos Theory but even better.
I bought SPECTRE. I'm going to try it out this week. Supposedly it is a spiritual successor to Spies vs Mercs.
The art direction seems sexy enough.
it's interesting that stealth multiplayer is an even smaller niche
Check out Intruder if you have friends, I've had a lot of fun with it and there are custom maps
I don't know, but since you play as two characters I guess there might be a point in time where they interact outside of a radio
i'm sorry for your loss. I followed development of that game for over a year and its still a janky piece of shit. The two devs are inept and take no criticism from their game and have gone radio silent for months since its "early access" release. Not to mention it was released for like 32 bucks for what was a glorified tech demo. Yes i'm malding holy shit.
Is malding same as balding?
you replace the humans with something else, whether it be robots or monsters. and I'm not talking about amnesia style vanilla hide n seek horror. the monsters should be interactable, they should have dynamic behavior and complex patrol routes, it should be possible for them to be neutralized/killed though they should perhaps be more resilient than the typical human guard.
this solves three of the key issues with stealth
1. the unavoidable aesthetic failure state of being a ninja in a location on red alert where everyone knows shit went down.
2. the heavily incentivized and repetitive task of knocking out guards one by one.
3. the suspension of disbelief breaking contrivances that make human guards blind and moronic with the memory of goldfish.
the recent black parade while it contains human guards is a fantastic example of the kind of possibilities granted by inserting various horror creatures into a stealth game.
How do we fix tacked on stealth systems that ultimately add absolutely nothing to the game?
Stealth has the same characteristic as the driving genre, it is used by other projects with more mechanics as a complement and not as the central theme.
Sekiro is a bad example. Poorly implemented stealth absolutely contributes to the gameplay because one of the most important lessons of Sekiro is that only a moron who wants to die fights fair and plays by the rules. You're supposed to stab bosses in the back so that they start the fight already wounded. You're supposed to cheat, because that's smart. When an opponent doesn't cheat against you, it's their own fault when they lose. And then you get into the final boss fight, and the boss literally brings a gun to a sword fight, because you were stupid enough not to bring your own. Stealth is an essential tool for refusing to engage on your enemy's terms. When someone challenges you to a duel at high noon, the best way to win is to strangle him in his sleep the night before.
Bizarre cope
Is consistent with the main story. Stealth is not the core mechanic, it's a cheat feature.
Though I suppose it wouldn't hurt if Sekiro's stealth mechanics had more depth to them. For example, the game has a semi day-night cycle based on how you progress. With a shadow based stealth system, you could kill some bosses with even better advantages, by sneaking up on them at night instead of during the day.
Originally they were going to make Tenchu but the stealth system created by Takuma Endo is on another level. Apparently they tried to implement it without satisfactory results and for that reason they gave a more direct approach to combat. He even polishes it further in Shinobido. And well Kamiwaza Way of the Thief is something totally different.
>it's shit on purpose so it's good
Yeah, that's pure copium in action.
It's not shit on purpose and it would be better if it wasn't shit. But being able to sneak around in a game that's all about difficult boss fights is an appropriate feature in Sekiro in particular because the entire story revolves around fighting unfair and having no honor hindering your actions. The point of the original post is why should games that are not based on stealth have tacked-on stealth? Well, Sekiro has a reason for having it. Not letting your opponent play is a legitimate method of winning when the only thing that matters is who lives and who dies.
>It's not shit on purpose
But you said it was. It was made as it was by design and you said it was poorly implemented, so it's intentionally bad.
Not him but you should stop he already explained it perfectly
>it's shit on purpose so it's good
Sekiro stealth is fricking terrible and has zero purpose, nobody argues in favour of that.
Being able to just run past trash filler encounters in an action game and not get penalized/forced into it is pretty nice, though.
>and has zero purpose
It's there to thin out the mooks and give you an edge against tough enemies like those spearBlack folk. It's a tool, not the entire game.
Stealth in sekiro shouldnt even be a thing because its not a Stealth game to begin with
Invasions in Watch_Dogs 1 and 2 are pretty good. The console servers for WD1 are still operational.
Make it a porn game, like you're stuck in the city without any clothing for some convoluted reason, and need to make it home without anyone spotting you.
Make it more like games and less like movies
Honestly, you don't. Not without some sort of hook and several other mechanics at play like what Hitman or MGS have tried to do. Pure stealth by itself just isn't fun, and I'm tired of pretending otherwise. Thief in particular, is one the most overrated games I've ever played. It's been paraded for years as this highly advanced, "cerebral" stealth experience, where the AI is laughably moronic and easily exploited, and requirements to finish missions on max difficulty are mind-numbingly tedious or arbitrary (pick up all treasure in this empty and large as frick map where your character moves at snail's pace, and knock out X amount of guards, and other meaningless garbage that has nothing to do with skill or intelligence).
Play Deus Ex.
Mathematically unlikely
I need to do the nameless mod, anyone played it?
Just play the Malkavian Mod instead.
why?
I'm playing it right now. Many members of the original team reunited and released TNM 2.0 three months ago. They removed a lot of the empty space from the original mod's maps and added a few new levels and weapons along with bugfixes. I highly suggest it.
great then, I'll make sure to play it soon. I also need to play human revolution and mankind divided
letting it rest
Literally just buy any of the newer Hitman games
>we have Splinter Cell at home
>wait, it's actually GOAT
Different style of stealth. Blending in with the crowds vs. trying to not be noticed period. That said, Ubisoft, for the love of frick, give me a new Splinter Cell or AssCreed multiplayer. I miss the frick out of both.
I kinda liked Blacklist's game play. No I did not like nu-Fisher and the cast. Frick the gay spy thriller cinematic nonsense. I liked how it was in the old ones. The faster stealth was pretty enjoyable.
>spy thriller cinematic nonsense
this was a big part of the original games, just done more tastefully.
Conviction is a guilty pleasure imo.
It would be better if you weren't forced to slaughter everyone in every mission practically.
I hope the conviction beta gets leaked one day. It was closer to Hitman than Splinter Cell but I've always found it fascinating.
didn’t they can it because they made assassin’s creed with the ‘crowd stealth’ concept instead?
I think so. But if you watch the SC demo and compare it to AC1, they really don't have much in common gameplay wise. Conviction was much more dynamic and experimental.
I agree, I fricking love its atmosphere and aesthetics
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If it's a crouch walk simulator I'm done with those. A stealth game should be about traps, misdirection and improvisation.
Conviction is overhated because of it's stupid plot. It exposed a lot of fake fans of the series for how they were talking about it "betraying" Sam Fisher's character even though it was all on track with Double Agent.
Most Splinter Cell fans only really like Chaos Theory and 1. Pandora Tomorrow and Double Agent (especially the next gen versions) are controversial.
>crouch walk simulator
I mean the best way to conceal yourself is by crouching
Just make sequel to Mark of the Ninja
Most people don't have the patience for real stealth games. A really good set of indie devs or a AA team could make a great stealth game, that's where I'd look for one.
Black Parade just came out, no saving needed now.
How about CO-OP Stealth?
Only one I can think of offhand were the co-op missions in Chaos Theory, and that all boiled down to forked paths so P1 can manipulate something which makes it safe for P2 to do their thing, and vice versa.
Plus many, many network errors making it near borderline unplayable because Ubisoft couldn't into networking back then
>play chaos theory coop with friends when it comes out
>none of them understand stealth games
it's a niche within a niche
god damn I love amon tobin
it was a surprise to see jesper kyd did some tracks on the ost too
stealth should design their missions around "the alert state" first and then worry about the "unalert state"
in this way it should be expected that the player is discovered and the base is on alert, the matter is when they will get discovered. it should almost never be the fail state.
there is no reason for one half of the base to be kicking back watching tv and scratching their balls, when an operative raised an alarm on the other side.
Okay but tons of people complain that when you get spotted you shouldn't be swarmed by guards (Intravenous and probably some other games when you watch people in these kind of threads)
Rope arrows are usually fine. One time though I was climbing one and when I got to the the top I launched like a rocket 50 feet into the air the opposite direction.
I only quicksave around rope arrow use, fiddly little fricks
>love the idea of stealth
>too impatient to take it slow leading to always fricking shit up and getting frustrated
is there a cure for this kind of autism?
Yes, your meds.
Anyone played Thief Simulator 2? I bought it, haven't had a chance to get into it yet. I thought the first one was pretty fun
First one was jank as all hell and it looked interesting but very poorly optimized. TS2's minimum reqs says "GTX 960 or equivalent" while reccomended is a 1070. Why do so many games require new GPU's?
I tried it a bit, not really enough to form any solid opinions. It looks the same as the first pretty much like same map, some changes. I played the first one way more.
>People bringing up Shinobido
Soul. More people should play this.
It's unsalvageable. Modern gamers hate pure stealth games that aren't designed for them to run and gun.
The modern thieving simulators are pretty decent, especially the VR ones. VR stealth is much better because you have to hide your body and head and have no third person view.
It's a shame SS2 is the one getting the VR port, I think Thief would work really well especially with how well bows and thrown objects work. Plus grabbing/climbing things directly with your hands could fix a lot of the jank mentioned in this thread.
copy MGS V exactly but make it coop and have more bases
Awful
Yes, gr wildlands came close, but could be done much better. Another studio should attempt the idea
Make it FAST, give the player quake speed.
How about the Sting? it's more of a party-based heist game where you also have to handle your logistics, but stealth is obviously a part of it.