>WW "Do not worry, I will not kill you. I want to put an end to our suffering."
>ToTK "I AM EVIL BECAUSE I JUST AM!"
Why is Ganondorf so mismanaged? First Smash Bros and now his own series...
Community-driven video game blog & discussion
>WW "Do not worry, I will not kill you. I want to put an end to our suffering."
>ToTK "I AM EVIL BECAUSE I JUST AM!"
Why is Ganondorf so mismanaged? First Smash Bros and now his own series...
Not really worth putting much effort into story for a kids game. The target audience doesnt really appreciate it anyway.
That was the result of a development team that actually cared, but the modern day state of gaming dictates that doesn't matter to the corporate overlords anymore
wasnt Miyamoto upset with LA? I could have sworn I saw some interview from one of the devs mentioning he Miyamoto was upset because how the story played out and wouldn't let him work on another.
Perhaps I'm mixing it up with some shit post.
That's Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Explorers of Sky.
Zelda lost its soul since BotW, shitty open world trash for kids, both the gameplay and story/lore elements took a massive hit. This one quote has more character than the entire script of BotW+botW2 combined
Hell, the first line of Twilight Princess mogs all of BotW2
>Tell me... Do you ever feel a strange sadness as dusk falls? They say it's the only time when our world intersects with theirs... The only time we can feel the lingering regrets of spirits who have left our world. That is why loneliness always pervades the hour of twilight...
Bullshit, audiences loved all of these games
>Pokemon Mystery Dungeon
>Mario Galaxy (Rosalina stuff)
And so on, fuck nu-Zelda, it's peak bastardization of a franchise, actually as bad as nu-GoW if not worse
BotW and TotK both do this weird thing where they're more heavily story-focused than most Zelda games with the flashback shit and the interpersonal relationships Link has, but it's all incredibly dull and one dimensional and amounts to nothing. The lack of a linear plot and the necessity that some or all of it can be skipped necessarily leads to a story that blows, I think.
I just wish video games would stop trying to focus on story so much. Even fucking Sonic Frontiers was really bad with it.
Sorry, no, you're not going to write a piece of fiction that resonates with people and addresses topical and mature themes in a fucking Zelda game. That's not going to happen. Video games are a children's medium, stop trying to make them as anti-fun as possible.
>Video games are a children's medium, stop trying to make them as anti-fun as possible.
very happy to see haterdom still holding up in today's world
>Sonic Frontiers was bad with it
>refuses to elaborate
Frontiers did a pretty good job of working its story theming on the topic of ego and choosing the hard path for its greater rewards, into the gameplay. Having to track down the mandatory story fragments was a bit of a mood killer, but at least it happens at your own pace. How is it any worse than traditional games having cutscenes, which typically occur at set intervals?
>BotW and TotK both do this weird thing where they're more heavily story-focused than most Zelda games
Typical Ganker dumbfuck take. You barely even get any story in BotW unless you actively look for it. Meanwhile, SS and TP do all they can to force you to take in its narrative. You people are idiots.
nta, but he was literally agreeing with you.
Lay off the monster bud. This is still just a Tibetan throat singing board, after all.
>actually as bad as nu-GoW if not worse
I wasn't aware Link was a soiboy raising someone else's kid while squirrel gods mocked him.
>wasn't aware Link was a soiboy raising someone else's kid while squirrel gods mocked him
None of this happens in GOW.
Please stop disrespecting my wife's son.
Zelda lost its soul past LttP, if you disagree you're literally a mindstuck tendie, go play some Onions of War.
OoT is THE soulful Zelda you moron, you literally only chose lttp to be contrarian
LA came right after and it has more soul than lttp and most other zeldas lmao what the fuck are you smoking
what I like the most about WW incarnation is that it implies Ganon's obsession with hyrule just brings about the death that haunted him in the gerudo desert. that's good characterization. ganon post-SS is just some demon god's incarnation. pre-demise ganon is just the devil king with an unbreakable will and crazed mind.
Hyrule is such a wide open expanse of nothing but plains. why didnt the Gerudo just move on in? especially kinda stupid when Gerudo and Hyrule isnt even seperated by a great sea or anything. the Gerudos could very well have just packed up and moved to the fair plains. I dont think the Hyrulians wouldnt mind have a mini warrior dynasty bunk with them and defend their shared homelands.
the king probably banished them to the desert because they like to rape and inbreed with the men
or maybe the other way around and it was to keep the gerudo safe
they...they dont really rape do they? I thought Gerudo and Hylian relationships were consensual.... you are telling me Hyrulian citizens can sleep soundly at night knowing theres a tribe of abnormally large women just a few miles away that would abscond with them to steal their seed without any remorse or mercy???
I thought this shit was a kids game? who the fuck wrote that? WHY would they write that?
What? Dude, gerudo are a massive deconstruction of the amazon archetype, they're big warrior women but 99% of them are into girly shit and crave a husband and children to devote their lives to, most of them complain about the no voe rule and only go along with it because dykes like Buliara enforce it with an iron fist.
The Gerudo raping is mostly a meme. They DO go out to look out for a husband and they are VERY traditionalist about their teachings but they are pretty loving as actual women, there is this one that can only think of her husband and can't see him because of the storm.
>The Gerudo raping is mostly a meme
> is mostly
Risa-minded Gerudo give the rest a bad name.
I imagine they were raping Hylian males left and right in primordial times and during periods of war and poor relations between the Gerudo and Hylians, in BOTW they're in peacetime and it would be frowned upon I guess.
They dance around the specifics with the Gerudo. We don't really know specifically whether the all-female thing is a result of them only being able to birth Gerudo (i.e. female) children or whether it's just only their female children can inherit Gerudo traits (while any sons they simply don't inherit any Gerudo features).
To put it another way, say a Gerudo and a Hylian man have kids. Which is it:
A) All of the children can only be female Gerudos
B) They can have children of either sex, but only the girls come out Gerudo while the boys would presumably just be Hylian
Obviously I'm ignoring the once-in-a-century Gerudo king thing, since that's explicitly an exception in either case.
Offspring are female Gerudo.
Is it actually specified anywhere? If that's the case, then there's good reason to keep them in the desert. They'd be a cancer on society in a very literal sense if they were mixed into the general population.
lol. imagine your entire society getting dominated by amazoness warrior women. I mean males would probably get passed around like livestock at that point. imagine being clasped in chains and reduced to breed stock all because some idiot king had a great idea to let a neighboring tribe move in because he felt a bit bad for em.
It may state it explicitly somewhere but at the very least it is also handled like female Gorons. Just like the absence of female Gorons is made extremely conHispanicuous, there are loads of acknowledged Gerudo daughters but not a single mention of any of them having any sons.
Don't Gorons just grow from the ground?
I think so, yes. Maybe as broken off pieces of other Gorons or something?
Gerudo's genetics suck, they will always be women like 99.999% of the time and hybrids aren't possible, only Gerudo will be the offspring. It's a tribe destined to extinction if this wasn't a game.
>all the children are still 100% Gerudo
>rape baby daughters get raped
Not only are Gerudos extremely unlikely to go extinct, they could actually drive other races (and potentially all of humanity) into extinction without even trying.
A tribe like Gerudo that isolate themselves will go extinct without even needing to be raped.
>that isolate themselves
Bold assumption. It's entirely likely, probable even, that the Kingdom of Hyrule keeps them at arms length precisely to keep Hylian men fathering Gerudo daughters to a minimum.
They're 7 foot tall Amazons. If they're really desperate, they can just steal men.
Play the game. They literally don't let males in the fucking town.
And yet they have no problem with them at the oasis. This is also assuming that that particular cultural practice just started up on its own in a vacuum at the beginning of time. If you were a tribe of nomadic rapists that got kicked out of the kingdom for demographically replacing its ruling population, would it really be all that unreasonable to keep your main base of operations off limits to your prey? You can't very well plan out seed stealing raids with the victims there listening in. That's even still sort of the acknowledged reason. It's not framed as stealing men to rape, but they do want to bring up Gerudo girls in the ways of their warrior culture seperate from the influence of the men they will be sent out to marry.
Eh, it's not exactly hard for a Gerudo to travel around for a while, ride the cock carousel until she gets knocked up, and then go back to Gerudoville. Or more likely there'd be an encampment of guys with Gerudofever right on the road from Gerudoton hoping to score with any Gerudo babes who just want to hop on the first cock they find.
They only have female, 100% Gerudo children except for the once in a century male.
They used to rape them in Oot and shit but it was changed in BotW to them roaming around looking for husbands
We would have to get into medieval fantasy politics in a game for kids. Its easier to just let it pass as the fact that they weren't allowed or something. Maybe the gerudo themselves were too prideful to do it.
Gerudo need to stay on their reservation or their fucked up genetics will throw off the gender balance, which would have consequences on society.
Imagine thinking zelda is deep
Zelda has always tried to be a hard T game that brushes up against M. Even Celda had mature themes that the cartoon aesthetic hides at first. The puzzles aren’t MENSA tier but they at least have correct answers, unlike modern Zelda that just gives passing grades for showing up. This Zelda is a baby game is the biggest cope you BotW gays have spun yet. I’d tell you to stop being a gay it is clearly a terminal case. Hope you die soon.
>The puzzles aren’t MENSA tier but they at least have correct answers
You're just asking for someone to post that WW boomerang puzzle webm.
but isnt it the same person (as opposed to Link who changes)? he's a deranged soul whose (weak) motivations lead him only down the path of destruction
also this 100%
the timeline is just shitty pandering to their aging audience of manchildren
nah, Ganondorf in BotW/TotK is a different one from the others
This. Nintendo realized this with Iwata, why bother when your games are targeted at the 9-13 age demographic? Every game is simple and easy, all flash no substance.
Ganondorf is kind of like the Joker. His characterization is entirely dependent on whoever's writing, and even then there's a lot of room for interpretation from the audience. Like was WW Ganondorf actually a tragic figure, or was he just bullshitting you?
He was still evil but he had a justified reason for trying to cause chaos this time around I guess. Like him knocking Link out and outright saying he's not going to harm him kinda shows he really is tired of the reincarnation bullshit.
>I want to put an end to our suffering.
You are wrong. In WW he wants Old Hyrule to rise above the seas and be like it used to be. This ties into the the theme of clinging to the past that WW has going on. And then again, he proceedes to try and kill Link and Zelda, if only to shit on King, hence why he mocks them saying the line about showing him the precious power of their triforce.
>Shows he really is tired of the reincarnation bullshit.
What reincarnation? This is the exact same Ganondorf from OoT that committed all the atrocities in that Game. He was cucked by the literal gods and wants nothing more than to bring back the old kingdom.
I am right, you are wrong.
Not the worst. Worst Zelda villain? Probably bottom 3 with one of the spinoffs
It is OOT Ganondorf but remember in WW he goes by Ganon.
How many Zelda games does the Triforce actually get used in?
It's shown/referenced in several ways in many games, but I can't remember how many of them actually use the wish.
>He was still evil but he had a justified reason for trying to cause chaos this time around I guess.
Not really, he was just an envious dipshit, people act as if him waxing poetic somehow gives him depth but in the end he was just being an asshole all the same, did the Hylians force the gerudo feminazis to self-segregate in a fucking desert? All other races were welcome so the gerudo were too, Ganondorf was just too much of a greedy cunt to accept that co-existence and just wanted it all for himself.
Even now in the world of BotW/TotK, gerudo easily have it the worst for sticking to their pointless dyke traditions, sometimes you just can't help people who don't want to help themselves.
that's why people like WW dorf. yes, he's an evil asshole, but he was an asshole with an obsession borne out of the harshness of the desert. it doesn't make him any less evil, it just makes it clearly it's a bit of his will that got him to where he was, but also a dark fate.
but we got lmao demise now
He was just mocking them for believing in the Goddesses who flooded Hyrule just to seal him away. There's nothing terribly tragic about it except him theorizing that he coveted what Hyrule had.
>was he just bullshitting you?
his response to getting free and having a second chance at life after being sealed away in the Sacred Realm was to do the exact same fucking thing he did before. And he didn't give a fuck whose life he ruined in the process so long as he could fulfill his desire.
And after all that, after the great flood, after countless years of nonstop plotting and scheming, he finally had the Triforce at hand, and what was his wish?
"I want the old land for me"
Like, okay, his life before getting the Triforce of Power sucked but that excuses exactly nothing that he did for his own lust for dominion and he certainly hasn't earned anyone's pity or sympathy. Tragic figure, yeah fucking right.
I don't think it even makes sense for him.
HUNDREDS of years and all he can think about is achieving his original, initial goal, it isn't that he's merely dumb, its that the goal has consumed his life, not even the anger of defeat or the hatred for good really remains in him by WW, its so long and arduous to maintain the drive that the goal is all that remains of the man.
its why he doesn't even care about killing Link or Zelda, not till the goal is impossible that is, he has no reason to lie at this point, none of the other Ganondorf's would lie here either, but all of them would absolutely slaughter Link and Zelda in those moments and opportunities, hell he even puts his weapon away to knock out Zelda instead of just cutting her head off.
and contrast that with king daphnes who sealed old hyrule for good so that the next generation can found their own land that isn't saddled with the sins of the past. it's a common theme in post-ww2 japanese fiction to not get obsessed with the past to the point you're getting in the way of the future.
Yes it's realistic
>just bullshitting you
I mean, he beat Link and Zelda and took the Triforce and left them alive when he could have easily taken a second and killed them both. He only tries to kill them when the King fucks him over and drives him mad stealing the Triforce at the absolute last minute.
The fact that the triforce works by first dips rules, is hilarious.
Nintendo is hard pandering to young adults that are ironically into anime nowadays so having actual storytelling with any sort of nuance is off the table
everything is gonna be xenoblade chronicles and fire emblem until the end of time, enjoy!
like do you think they calling him the demon king is just a random name? no its because of isekai anime
lol, lmao even
>battle shonen anime with some "gameplay" between anime cutscenes
You're probably serious too.
have a nice day
>do you think they calling him the demon king is just a random name?
I mean, yes? Isekai use it because they all base their crappy rpg elements from Dragon Quest and DQ had one. Besides, they are threating Dorf and Demise in this game as the same entity.
And for the record, Dimitri's story is really well told and so are the Xeno games.
Adults don’t watch anime, retard.
In the Japanese scripts, Ganondorf was always called the Great Demon King. The title is a staple in Japanese folklore, as opposed to only existing in video games. The English scripts gave him different titles for years, probably to avoid having "demon" right in his title during the moral panic of the 1990s, hence why he was the "Great King of Evil" in Ocarina of Time and the "Dark Lord" in Twilight Princess, though the latter was also trying to capitalize on the popularity of The Lord of the Rings film trilogy at the time, which even inspired parts of Twilight Princess' aesthetic.
Is TOTK Ganondorf the worst video game villain?
Meh, he really just lacks presence on the plot and the general plot is terribly told.
Other than that, he is just your standard evil king, nothing really terrible.
This, Dorf in the intro is really damn cool
>Casually arm-rapes link
>Breaks his master sword
>Gets a cut from the master sword shard, still calls it a joke
Really good stuff, but then again, he does nothing for the rest of the story.
>Your master sword, it did not cut deep enough
Its really stupid that they came up with a new Ganondorf...just for him to run through the general same OoT shit, just without a Link around to stop him, and have him be one-note evil.
Would have been better to just say he was OoT/TP Ganondorf if Tears was not going to bother giving him any real character
the whole game is a retreading of OOT.
not just Ganondorf.
its OOT for a new age, time has effectively looped back around.
A boring villain is not as bad as a completely retarded villain. Ganon is just bland, but not offensive.
He's at least better than the one in BOTW. I don't remember shit about that one besides it being one of the easiest boss fights ever.
I have no idea what they were going for with ganon in TOTK. His story initially makes him out to be a little more grounded in reasoning, but all he does is hurl waves of shit at his enemies then does a baby tier sneak attack. He should've been more like Windwaker Ganon
Zelda looks like a woman in that webm
you are clearly gay, and also homosexual, and a lover of men if you had any to love
B- better than rollslop, at least!
Even if you don't cheese him, Phantom Ganon is really easy compared to other mini bosses, and feels like a victory lap if you manage to kill those fucking rape hands in the first place. Feels like they tuned him to show up more often as something low-level players might have to deal with, but instead he only appears after killing an enemy that no one in their right mind is going to try attacking until they're good and ready.
The Hyrule Castle Version is a decently fun and can get a couple hits out of you, having to deal with many of them, specially when they start trapping your summons.
the hands are real easy if you spam bomb arrows on them, but yeah fighting them normally is a huge pain in the ass that mostly consists of mashing attack, mashing out of their grabs, and hoping you kill them all before they start respawning.
phantom ganon is there to get you used to ganondorf's moveset for the final boss.
OP pretends all incarnations of ganondorf are the exact same when the series had nothing resembling a timeline until fucking skyward sword.
Yes they are literally the same Ganondorf? Did you play the games or was watching them on youtube enough for that post?
Three games out of a series older than you and I. I will not be taking any further bait.
I love how in WW he drops Dorf from his name because he has already transformed into Ganon once in the Adult Timeline.
Not true. In the earlier games you only knew Ganon, then in LTTP a guy says that Ganon used to be a human named Ganondorf, and OOT expanded on that by show Ganondorf before he became Ganon. After that it got all convoluted because Ganondorf made such an impression he kept coming back and getting sealed away and all this convoluted timeline nonsense happened where they wanted to tell self contained stories, but didn't want to think about what Ganondorf was doing for all those hundred of years between games so now apparently there's different incarnations of him.
its very simple.
OOT creates 3 obvious possible futures all at once, the games that follow it loosely can fit into one of them each.
WW Ganondorf is not connected to Twilight Princess Ganondorf in any way, they are the Same Man only in that they had the same origin, but time diverged and they lived different lives.
for instance, TP Ganondorf never met a Link/Zelda who opposed him at all.
there's the world link saves and the world that goes on after he opens the gate, what's the third again?
The one when he's sent back and brings to MM?
Link fails, link succeeds and goes back to being a child, and link succeeds and stays adult
He doesn't stay as an adult.
The adult timeline is the future link left begind. WW intro is literally about people waiting for a hero that never came.
the timeline where he fights Ganon and wins as an Adult.
the Timeline where he straight up dies/and or/ never fights Ganondorf/Ganon at all.
and the Timeline where as a kid he rats on Ganondorf and he gets locked up before any of it can happen.
>Adult timeline, Link beats Ganon, is sent back in time and no one is there to protect Hyrule
>WW and its sequels happen
>Child timeline, Link after beating Ganon and being sent back in time, has Ganondorf arrested of treason and sets off to find Navi
>MM happens, and then TP
>Link fails timeline, Link, at some point in his adventure, fails.
>LoZ happens, then Adventure of Link
timeline, Link beats Ganon, is sent back in time and no one is there to protect Hyrule
I never got this one. Ganon is defeated, so how the fuck did he conquer hyrule right after Link is sent back? If WW dorf isn't the same one from OOT, then how come a new hero was never born generations later? Moreover, why the fuck would Zelda [or Link] knowingly go through with this plan if it spells doom for Hyrule immediately afterwords?
In adult timeline, he is sealed in the Sacred Realm by the sages. Ganondorf swears he will escape it, which he does generations later when there's no Link to stop him. WW Dorf IS that Ganondorf.
Zelda and Link didn't know Ganondorf could actually escape,
I thought sealed sacred realm dorf was twilight princess
Nah, TP Ganon is from the Child Timeline where his plan of treachery gets exposed and he's sentenced to death
No, Dorf was going to be executed in TP.
That fails so they throw him into the hylian dumpster that is the twilight. That backfired spectacularly as Dorf made contact with an incel that was bitter because he wasn't rewarded properly.
>no timeline before SS
>ALttP was marketed as a prequel hence the name
>OoT plays out the events of the imprisoning war described in ALttP
>WW continues after OoT, as does TP
I'm so tired of seeing this moronic fucking post in every single Zelda thread. There was always a timeline, you just started with OoT and never caught onto it.
>hence the name
It's called Triforce of the Gods in Japan.
Nothing in TotK was as powerful as this.
Tears of the Kingdom Ganondorf is a wholly new being/reincarnation.
WW Ganondorf had hundreds of years to muse on his failings and get a bit more humble.
ToTK Ganondorf does not, is far more powerful, and from his perspective has been just recently empowered, even if he spent 10k years sealed away, to him it was a blink of time
OK ? That doesn't justify shit characterization. A character can be evil and interesting, TotK Ganondorf is not, his dialogue is shit, his actions are boring, he just behaves like a Saturday morning cartoon villain, he's a joke.
>that cinematography and voice acting
Absolutely mogs BotW2 without any voiced dialogue, holy fuck nu-zelda is TRASH
he's literally a fucking Demon's will reincarnated as a man.
he IS a mortal stand in for the LITERAL CONCEPT OF MALICE AND EVIL ITSELF.
he's Archetypical to a high degree, as is Link and Zelda, they are Hero's Journey archetypes embodied.
you think your making a critique here but you're retarded, the entire narrative function of each game in the series is humble hero faces abyssal evil and triumphs.
Demise and basically everything from SS is the absolute nadir of Zelda lore and world building. Fuck Hylia in particular, we had a nice little pantheon of three already firmly established.
yep. OOT's solidified ganon as a snake with an obsession. drew so much evil within himself by sheer force of will to become the bad guy. but again, anything past skyward sword is "lmao demise".
You just said "he's evil" again. Explain what's well executed about his character.
Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter is evil and is also a brilliant character because he behaves like a person, has great dialogue and drives the plot in interesting ways (with his allegiances changing constantly depending on his goals, sometimes allying with or opposing the protagonists). TotK Ganondorf has shit dialogue, shit characterization, does basically nothing and is a fucking laughing stock.
>Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter is evil and is also a brilliant character because he behaves like a person
>casually chills with his friends and the protagonists
>asks girls out on a date
>has a libido and testosterone
>has his own goals, interests, etc
>never behaves comically evil despite being a villain, will join whichever side suits his goals
"Evil" isn't synonymous with shit character, TotK Ganondorf is shit because he's poorly written as an evil character.
>Hisoka from Hunter x Hunter is evil and is also a brilliant character because he behaves like a person,
Oh no, he is a hunterchud...
I haven't read HxH in years and the recent volume lost me at the flashback, that was just the first character that came to mind when I thought of "well written evil guy". But I was something of a Hunterchad back in the day. Still not sure why you're samefagging like that's going to make TotK Ganon less shit.
he isn't a fleshed out character, he's The Dragon, he's Evil Incarnate.
he's Archetypical, as is Link.
Link is Perseus and Hercules and Gilgamesh and ect ect.
these characters literally cannot be too nuanced, they are stand-ins for heroic and primordial archetypes from ancient history and resonant with humanity since time immemorial.
Nah, he's a shitty cartoon villain with bad dialogue. Perseus and Hercules and Gilgamesh have origins going back thousands of years and are rich in cultural and literary value.
I think you are just really fucking dumb.
Nobody said he was particularly "well executed". Maybe a few anons said that about WW Ganon, but in MOST of his appearances he is just a pretty simple purely antagonistic force. To say that Ganon is uncharacterized and too black and white while ignoring that the heroes of the story are 100% the same (but good) is kind of silly. With maybe the small exception that Link has possibly a mischievous streak, and Zelda has a tendency to be unsure of herself. Still pretty one-dimensional overall.
Yes all of the characters in BotW and its sequel are shit, unlike prior Zelda games, that's what's being criticized in this thread. TWW Ganon was a great character, TotK Ganon is a stereotypical Saturday morning cartoon villain.
I guess. But while I will concede that Saturday morning cartoon villains actually typically do have more personality, clearly TotK Ganon wasn't meant to have much. I'm not saying it's a good or a bad thing really. Would have been nice if he got more, but this coming from a series where he was once a vague pig monster with literally zero personality. You really shouldn't expect him to be. WW and TP was the only time he ever really had anything going on.
Please, Zelda has never had the kind of extreme deep meaningful shit you claim it does and demand. OoT Ganondorf is just as one-note and flat as TOTK Ganondorf, but I'm sure you praise him as the pinnacle of characterization.
bro ww ganon was lying to you
he's still in evil gay
You're both speaking hyperboles.
TOTK Ganondorf was a fun villain as a force of evil, WW Ganon was not lying, he spares Link and Zelda is treated extremely well while in captivity. That's what makes that a more human take on Ganon, not merely his words (BOTW's Gerudo desert suggests that he spoke the truth, given that you can die from the heat during the day and die from the cold during the night.)
Not to mention, he has ZERO reason to lie to Link, who he had bested twice even with the fully powered Master Sword.
Link in WW is a complete underdog, he never defeats Ganon until it's literally wished upon the triforce that Ganon loses, in their final fight Ganon is defying the power of the triforce, the very power that created their reality, it was hopeless and he must have known that.
Not everything needs to be as deep and thoughtful as Neon Genesis Evangelion to be good and entertaining. Do you piss and moan at A New Hope because Darth Vader doesn't tell you his life's story and why he covets The Force?
>deep and thoughtful
>the series that wears all its theming on a surface level and doesn't expound on them past meaningless anti-symbolic use of imagery
>dude who became a hunter to be able to murder unpunished and does shit on a whim
But he gets a boner from time to time, great character
tvtropes and wiki warriors have ruined literacy
Hisoka isn't evil, he's sick. ToTK is fucking garbage, though, and so is GDorf from the game. You can't compare Zelda writing to HxH writing. It's like comparing shit to a diamond.
Yeah WW would have been better if, right before Link sunk the master sword into Dorf's head, Ganondorf just yelled out, "OH MY COVETED WIND" then the wind blew the master sword away and ganondorf yet lived.
Huntertards really can't help themselves.
>we have another SS sperg in the thread
All that shit is a retcon that came years after WW. It is not valid to say that WW's interpretation of Ganon contradicts a game's canon which did not exist until a full decade later.
>All that shit is a retcon
More than that, the interpretation that Ganondorf has no free will is wrong even with a post Skyward Sword interpretation of the character. Demise's curse is about the inevitability of conflict through mutual hatred.
Man, good point. Why do people go to such great lengths to excise potential for agency?
Ganondorf is the favorite character of some autism, and he wants him to be redeemed at all cost and team up with link like in his fanfiction.
I guess I should have known all of these "what happened to ganondorf" threads were created by the same schizo. Ive been staying out of them until now to avoid spoilers
If anything that makes even less sense why people try so hard to rob him of his agency - what made him a tragic villain in WW wasn't his sob story, it's the fact that he came so damn close to uniting the Triforce bearers (albeit through questionable means), and very nearly could've done the right thing and broken the cycle. But then he apes out and falls back on his old habits, ensuing in tragedy, unnecessary conflict, and his eerie death. This tragedy is what motivates people who want to see him redeemed, so why would they actively attempt to justify why he might lack agency and be unable to find redemption?
You are a WWbaby, you were dumb then, and you are now, there are 5 games before WW. He always has been an evil petty cunt and nothing more and none of your fedora headcanon will ever be real. Ganondorf is satan, the goddesses are not evil and flooding the world is shown as a literal mercy kill, ganondorf is that bad that virtually destroying the world is the best scenario as letting him rule and again those 5 games that precede WW show that statement is true.
WW Ganon > TP Ganondorf
Does anyone have a link to that big blog about the breakdown of Ganon's relation with Malice and Demise cuse?
Oh man second this I haven't thought about that in years. shit is probably outdated now
>says one throwaway line about jealousy while continuing to act in a comically evil manner
>idiots pretend he's well written
I like WW, but you're an idiot.
wind waker ganondorf was in a unique literary position, given the circumstances of the plot, where he felt like all of hyrule had been slighted by the gods, redirecting his grudges and hatred more directly at said gods rather than the people of the great sea. WW ganondorf believes his desire to bring back hyrule to be genuinely altruistic, and he feels a level of kinship with the other people of the great sea, in his own fucked up way. this is why he consistently goes easy on link, and why he isn't just conquering the shit out of everybody like he very easily could have. in his mind, he is fighting against the tyranny of the gods.
that what he is doing is so evil despite the previous statements is a testament to ganondorf's villainy and psychopathy.
>this is why he consistently goes easy on link
HE THREW HIM INTO THE OCEAN TO DIE AND WILL KILL YOU IN YOUR FIGHT AGAINST HIM AS PUPPET GANON BEFORE HE EVEN HAS A CHANCE TO GET THE TRIFORCE
YOU WILL GAME OVER FIGHTING HIM, HE HAS EVERY INTENT TO KILL
HE CURSES THE GREAT SEA
DID YOU PLAY THE FUCKING GAME
>HE THREW HIM INTO THE OCEAN TO DIE
he kicked out a trespasser. that involved chucking him into the ocean because he's a bad person
> WILL KILL YOU IN YOUR FIGHT AGAINST HIM AS PUPPET GANON
you're chasing him down in an attempt to kill him, at that point it's self-defense.
>HE CURSES THE GREAT SEA
to spite the gods
GANON'S A GOOD BOY
HE DIDNDU NUFFIN
at no point did I say ganondorf was good, the point is that ganondorf is evil no matter what his motivations are, with WW being a testament to this.
Ganon broke the NAP by kidnapping Aryll, "kicking out a trespasser" my ass.
Link should have gone through the appropriate legal channels and filed a complaint. An appropriate conversation was due, calm and civilized, but Link let his emotions get the better of him and ruined all chances of negotiation.
He kidnapped people and started all of this, you samefagging retard. His monsters fucking attack people on the ocean. Even undoing the flood at the very least will destroy the current way of life for people living on the Great Sea. A sword through the skull is exactly what he deserved for all of the shit he did in WW and OoT.
>he kicked out a trespasser. that involved chucking him into the ocean because he's a bad person
To rescue his kidnapped sister. I hope you're just a decent troll because this would be insane levels of over-analyzing a story to get a brainlet opinion on it.
>calls people brainlet
>too retarded to understand the point is that ganondorf is inherently and unfixably evil, even when he can logically explain his actions or views his deeds as mutually beneficial
people like you are why villains are generically evil with zero depth, completely incapable of understanding nuance.
The point is I don't give a damn about his reasons or actions, he's evil regardless. The ends don't justify the means and he's a crybaby gay and Ganker probably just relates to that, I'm making fun of his idiotic fanboys.
>HE THREW HIM INTO THE OCEAN TO DIE
Didn't know Link was the reincarnation. Also to be fair Link broke into his fortress, he had the stand your ground law
>HE CURSES THE GREAT SEA
He curses the great flood that killed hundreds of his people. He was in the right.
Nice try Nayru
Thinking it's okay to kill Link if Link is a random child, rather than a prophesied child, is perhaps even worse, anon. Also, Link was there to rescue his sister, who the Helmaroc King abducted. As for the curse on the Great Sea, Ganondorf LITERALLY curses the Great Sea with an intense storm and an endless night.
This is pure fanfiction, this is how YOU want the story to run in, but the game makes it painfully obvious that flooding the entire world is a better option than letting him rule it and since people actually play the rest of the game sunlike you, everyone knows that is true.
You want this to be some jrpg fedora cliche about killing god because man > god.
Ganondorf have always been a power hungry asshole who needs to have things his way or everyone dies, the only difference in WW is that he is old, tired, and he actually succeeded and is not as rabid as TP who was 100% cockblocked.
What the hell are you talking about? He openly admits his motivations were envy and the desire to rule what he could not have. That is not altruistic at all.
There are sensible motivations, you know he is doing it more out of personal ambition than making life better for his gerudo subjects.
Neo-ganon is just "evil monster" which honestly would be fine in his monster pig form, but you really can't give him reason and then have him just evil for the sake of evil.
I havent done the finale of totk yet, but it doesnt really seem like ganon has really said anything about his motivations. Unless I'm missing something, this is exactly how Oot gandorf was portrayed, and that ganondorf was the same one as WW ganondorf. Now that I think about it, TP ganondorf is very similar to this as well. Youve really just latched on to this one appearance of the character and refuse to let go, huh?
Better written than the immediate next two incarnations. TP Gannondorf is quite literally the most generic incarnation and Demise gave a stupid justification for the Status quo they barely acknowledge even now. I can't believe people are trying to prop ToTK as the worst now, he might not be the most interesting but he's not that bad as TP where he shows up the tail end of the game after you killed the original Villain that had some actual interest to him.
Everything about modern Nintendo is mismanaged.
Zelda will FOREVER be Fortnite
It's a different story they're selling. WW Ganondorf is the man who was hated by the gods.
Completely different universe and story. Not the same dude.
The first ten seconds of the game prove you wrong, retard.
Why is undoing a cataclysmic event evil?
the cataclysm happened because it was better than what he wanted to do.
When Ganondorf got his way, Hyrule was a desolate zombie filled wasteland, and it's only downhill from there. Life still carried on after the "cataclysm" and even prospered in some cases.
So why is it evil? Well it wouldn't be of his only goal was to stop at restoring the old world. Except Ganon is defined by his power and ambition. There is no way he would stop there.
God(s) = good
Get this through your thick skull, Satan.
I never realized how fucked up WW intro was as a kid
>Ganondorf breaks out of the seal and is implied to have caused death and destruction again
>the people of Hyrule beg and pray to their gods to save them
>they fucking drown them
Are such gods worthy of worship? I think not.
Wasn't this, 'coincidentally', the last game that Din/Nayru/Farore are directly mentioned as worshiped gods in? Perhaps the people of Hyrule turned from them completely after the drowning to praise 'Hylia'?
I miss the golden goddesses.
golden goddesses are zonai now 🙂
Based and Ganonpilled
>What did the King of Hyrule say? ...That the gods sealed Hyrule away?
>And they left behind people who would one day awaken Hyrule?!
>Don't you see? All of you... Your gods destroyed you!
HOLY FUCK this was kino
Just nuke BotW already and bring Zelda games back please
Our days are done. Money talks and the millions brought in by BOTW expect Zelda to be BOTW now. The most you can hope for is that they keep improving on the main content design.
it would be sensible for them to develop a parallel series of zelda games in the traditional style, even if they were only 2d or something. nintendo definely have the resources for that at least
I want them to make Zelda 2 but not shit.
This has been my dream ever since a link between worlds. My only last piece of copium is that LA on the switch was to keep the 2d momentum going until they have a dedicated team for this
They most likely will do something like this since that's what they've been doing. If I had to guess, we'll probably be seeing either something like a Zelda 2 remake, or a more "serious" Ocarina of Time remake. It's bad news if they keep pushing out their "BOTW" games one after another.
Open world games are expensive and take forever. And normalfags are fickle. X but open world won't continue selling games forever, and when it stops working it will not just be wise but outright necessary to stop making them because they won't be worth it. Unfortunately, this could take 20 years to be fully resolved.
I never really thought about the fact that all the happy characters during the credits of OoT only had a short brief of hapiness and relief before ganon broke out again, did horrible things to hyrule yet again and then everyone fucking drowned from being flooded
WW kind of just makes all the characters you saved completely pointless. If Link died during the ganon fight, it wouldve brought upon ALTTP link which is a much better timeline
nah they lived happy lives. it says they lived for generations until Ganon broke out.
Their grandkids tho? Fuck em
I'm just happy with Link x Malon <3
Huh? Malon? Oh you mean Medli!
Anon, there is no specified time between the end of OoT and WW's prologue. For all we know, it could have been hundreds of years.
They actually prayed to the Hero of Time before praying to the Goddesses which is the sad part. He's in a completely different timeline thanks to Zelda, lamenting over the fact that he couldn't be in the era where he was known as a savior.
When the goddesses took action, they froze time and instructed the people who hadn't yet been killed by Ganon and his army to flee to the mountaintops, at which point the Great Flood began.
I haven't played TOTK yet. Is Ganondorf actually lame in it or is it just contrarianism? The marketing seemed to focus on him a lot, so I expected him to at least have something interesting going on.
in ToTK Ganondorf is pretty cool in the opening cutscene when he awakens. After that though he literally sits still and does NOTHING in the main story until you fight him and he's just evil "HAHA!" again.
In the memories it shows Ganondorf leading the Gerudo trying to take over Hyrule because....he's just evil okay? And he plays the ultimate 4D chess move of walking behind the Queen and punching her and then stealing her tear stone. That's it. That's all there is.
what are you gays going on about, the totk intro was awful. a classic example of "show, don't tell" being utterly ruined by retarded and unnecessary dialogue. everything ganondorf said in that scene would have been better elsewhere
Does WW happen before or after TotK? It would make sense if Ganondorf was a dickhead in TotK only to want to eventually stop this shit in WW.
This probably isn't the case however, BotW pretty much is set so far in the future that all other games are all legend now I think.
>Your gods cause a great flood
>Gorons basically become extinct
>Zoras, in a cruel twist of fate, evolve into fucking birds
>Majority of people drown and died until only a handful on some islands were left
>Gerudos are actually gone. Dead. They are not in WW at all I just realized holy shit.
>To top it all off, Ganondorf, the reason they did all this, is still alive and kicking
It's not like the Goddesses were ever really characters, but holy fuck was that messed up. Like, seriously? Was adult OOT a few prayers away from them wiping out everyone, without a second thought or feeling?
If this was some kind of Metal Gear franchise, then perhaps we could have some kind of anti-villain-hero monster of Gannondorf who, while absolutely wrong, wouldn't be entirely off base in fighting a war against the girls so long as he believed in some kind of liberty for all mortals and stuff.
But that's never been Gannon and never will be. John Cygan is not going to come back to life and VA for him. There has never been and never will be anything sympathetic about Gannon.
Well they're plentiful in Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks so it's just all the ones in Hyrule that drowned
Even in Windwaker he was kidnapping little girls and killing them.
Nah he wasn't killing them but he was kidnapping them to try and find Zelda.
Still fucked up tho.
He very explicitly wasn't killing them,.
He didn't kill them, but he probably would've killed Zelda if he actually found her and got her triforce. Not to mention he was ruining everyone's lives on the islands anyways. Dorf had exactly one good line of dialogue in WW, and even that line completely clashed with his actions so either Miyamoto is awful at writing or he was just bullshitting everyone again.
Wind Waker was before they decided Ganondorf really was going to be a main fixture from then on. It was only his second appearance and as such you could think of it as a direct follow-up to his OoT iteration. TP and ToTK make sure that Dorf is geared more towards longevity so the character never has to change and can be used however many times they want.
What are you talking about he’s been in all the main Zelda games
HEY MORTY I JUST COVETED THE WINDERINO MORTYYYYYYYYY IM DEEP GANON BUUUUUUUURP MORTY
Why do I feel so sad
Because you're starting to realize that everything is fucking terrible, and we live in a foundationally broken world? Because you realize that your experiences are unexceptional, and your suffering exists to better men that fucking hate you? Because you realize that you've outgrown the things you once loved, and the world is too degenerate to offer you anything new and meaningful? Because you realize that we've explored all there is to see, answered every philosophical question, and told every story that could possibly be told?
Haha I wonder why you're sad. Haha.
I doubt that point. I hate thinking about my childhood
Well just remember that all bad things that happened to you in childhood was predetermined. If you were molested or beaten as a kid you deserve it, because the universe knew you would become a worthless person in the future.
Winners don't get abused as kids.
No, I wasn't abused. I just think I'm better off today than I was 20 years ago
Nietzsche would have a field day on you, fucking astounding
>bringing up that hack
Dude was a mad man
Nice ad hominem to a dead man, followed by baseless dismissal. I'm sure you feel very intelligent.
Was the stick in your ass predetermined too, or did you enjoy shoving it up there?
don't listen to the other idiot
listen to the other idiot
wtf is wrong with my keyboard tonight
DON'T listen to the other idiot, he's just spouting nihilism crap he probably got from an anime he just watched
wow another one of these posts. God i hate you zoomers so fucking much, even better a fucking sponge bob picture.
have a nice day you stupid sack of shit.
>he said, burying his head in the sand further
Nah I'm with them, you're embarrassing. I would tell you to have a nice day but you probably would.
You're growing up.
No, it doesn't get better.
If you're lucky you can reproduce and vicariously enjoy your offspring's childlike wonder for a brief period.
Because you spend your time posting on a Mongolian fish-fucking forum surrounded by the most jaded contrarian gays on the planet. It gets better, but only if you make it get better.
WW did irreparable harm to the franchise.
They tried to add some characterization to some of the main characters in a series that has always had complete cardboard cutouts to give some plot direction to move the game forward.
They were never ment to be that important or indepth because spending too much time on them takes away from the gameplay focus, and they've been struggling with that ever since.
you're not long
20 years later and WW still has the most expressive Link, the best version of Zelda, who was so good that when she turned into Zelda it somehow was a downgrade, and the most characterization Ganondorf ever had.
TP followed it up pretty well with shit like Midna but yeah, they've struggled to capture that characterization again
>TP followed it up pretty well with shit like Midna
That's half their problem. They're so deathly afraid to commit to almost any tangible characterization for the main trio most of the time, that they'll give most the spotlight and attention to side characters that just makes all three even worse by comparison.
Ganon is the literal incarnation of pure evil.
Whoa Ganon is evil?
From my point of view the Hylian gods are evil.
Ganon is meant to be a scary incarnation of pure evil. The literal king of demons given form
>Ganker is so retarded that they're incapable of realizing horrible people will lie to justify anything they do
This is the same reason you gays fall for Solidus' sob story. You think anyone is charismatic
>He thinks Ganondorf was lying
>Literally took the Triforce from Link and Zelda and did not hurt them as promised
Yeah I'm sure those five seconds compared to Ganondorf's entire history is reason to believe he instantly turned over a new leaf after he tried to kill them bother earlier in the game. He definitely wouldn't be a piece of shit after attaining his goals. He's a fucking crybaby who felt he was entitled to everything just because he came from a shithole country.
>Solidus' sob story
"sob story" ?
>"Noooooo I just wanted to be remembered because I can't have kids"
>Better instigate conflict in shithole war-torn third world countries and irreparably mentally damage countless child soldiers if they managed to survive and didn't die horrible deaths
>Killed a pregnant woman, leads a ship to crash into Manhattan causing crazy death and destruction
>Then tries to still kill Raiden to find out the location of the Patriots
Literally everyone wanted the Patriots gone but he had the faggiest reason for it and the shittiest methods. They keikaku'd the fuck out of him to and ironically nothing he did mattered in the longrun. Ganker watches too much anime so they think his infodump speech after being absent most of the game is a proper substitute for character development.
Ganondorf isn't lying in WW.
he never says anything about doing anything good with Hyrule, or turning over a new leaf, he merely says he doesn't care about killing Link and Zelda and just wants Hyrule.
I have no idea why anyone doubts this, you are taking implications from this that aren't presented and thinking he's lying about things he hasn't even, and never does, say.
>he merely says he doesn't care about killing Link and Zelda and just wants Hyrule.
He sure felt like he needed to kill Link early in the game when he just threw Link into the ocean to die. He sure tried to kill him as Puppet Ganon, too. What's he going to do when he finally gets Hyrule? Just sit in the throne room all day? Even ignoring Ganondorf's crimes from the Ocarina era he does horribly villainous shit right before and during Wind Waker.
>"Hurr I coveted that wind"
Too fucking bad,
He's called the fucking "king of evil" in several games and in his original appearance "the prince of darkness", as in Satan. The great deceiver. Why would you ever believe anything he says? Why? Why is this whole board filled with contrarian retards that think they're smart by pretending that completely irredeemable villains are in any way justified in their actions or sympathetic? You guys unironically defend these characters with "dindu nuffin" logic.
That anon didn't say he was sympathetic, or non-evil, Mr. Projection. He just said he spoke honestly. He never claimed he wouldn't do all the things he wanted to like before. He just expressed his own personal thoughts about it for once. At best he was just having a moment of objective clarity. No one doubted that he would cease fucking shit up if he won though.
>No one doubted that he would cease fucking shit up if he won though.
Re-read this thread
point out the posts that specifically say Ganondorf would become good after his wish, right now gay
metal gear solid 2 and wind waker have the same plot btw, it's just that in mgs2 korl/the patriots are more unambiguously evil
It stands to reason that eventually Ganon would be mindbroken by the cycle and stop trying to resist, he may have episodes of sadness and despair like in WW but would return to the cackling and scheming eventually, he's still a person and will change in time like anyone else.
Ganondorf was already broken into 3 Ganondorfs by the timeline split and so far, only LttP's Ganondorf(which I think TOTK's Ganondorf might be a reincarnation of) actually won, only to have his wish undone by the Triforce. There's some hints of him wanting to control the cycle that he's been placed into, through shapeshifting and Hegelian problem-reaction-solution.
>The demon king broke out of the unbreakable seal. What should we do? Find a new hero? Ask the Goddess of Time to transport Link to us so he may defeat him again? Or-
The Golden Goddesses are like Old Testament God. They are omnipotent, have the power of creation, totally beyond the scope of any mortal or god in the setting, and also have a rather capricious nature. They canonically just straight up fucking left Hyrule after they created it and never gave a shit about it afterwards. The fact that they even answered the Hylian's prayers at all is kind of a miracle.
The Goddess of Time is Hylia and she was the one who sent Link to a different timeline, dooming that one.
I have a theory that the story about how the Goddesses themselves decided to drown Hyrule was bullshit, they never intervene like that before or after Wind Waker, and Ganondorf has gained power like that undeterred.
The Triforce also famously doesn't care about morality, and it's a direct creation of the Goddesses, I think intervening like that story is against the rest of their mythos.
I believe the King of Hyrule might have used the Triforce of Wisdom to seal Hyrule away from Ganondorf, we know he had it, he had a piece and his descendant inherited another, the Triforce of wisdom is Nayru's piece who is associated with water, and at the end of the game the King wants the kingdom to stay sealed under that weird magical sea that freezes things in time, no one else seems to want that.
>Why is Ganondorf so mismanaged?
You are a retard if you believed what he said in Wind Waker. Ganondorf will say whatever the fuck he want if in the end he will have the power over Hyrule.
>He will say this and do this.....BECAUSE I SAID SO!
>But his actions showed-
>NO SHUT UP I'M RIGHT
Yeah. WW Dorf clearly showed that he has a level of honor that is beyond what he possessed in other games, and people who just deny this seems to want villains to lack any human characteristics.
Didn't the goddesses instruct the people to get to the mountain tops? I don't think it's ever confirmed they just killed a fuckton of people to save a few.
Ganondorf is an ambitious guy who lives in the shittiest climate and has no male role models in his kingdom thanks to Gerudo law. Then some weird furry descends from the sky and claims the most fertile portion of the area as his kingdom, and to make things worse he fails to use his super tech to its full potential. By the time Link fights him at the end of the game, he's been ruminating in a hole underneath a castle, and he's only regained some of his faculties after a hand lodged in his chest was removed and attached to the manlet he's fighting that has a bitchin' sword which is the first thing that's actually been able to hurt him since the aforementioned hand.
You just spouted a bunch of subtext and borderline fan canon. The game itself never explores Ganondorf's feelings on his region, his people, certainly not "Gerudo law", and only hints at the inferiority complex towards Zonai. TWW Ganon directly talks about the Gerudo suffering, the gods being shitheads, his discontent with the state of civilization, and so on.
NTA but what's wrong with reading into subtext when it's present?
I forgot how good this intro was
>But the hero did not appear
Something I've been thinking about: if Ganondorf broke out of Rauru's seal and, instead of breaking the planet into chunks and flooding Hyrule with AIDS, just said, "This is my kingdom now. I'm the king of Hyrule," would Zelda even CARE? Would anyone for that matter? Zelda was more interested in building schools than ruling her country and the castle was just sitting in disrepair. I'm sure he had plenty of reason to just be pissed off after being mummified for god knows how long, but he probably could have had everything he wanted with no risk of retaliation had he kept his head on.
Depends. What would be his tax policy?
"I don't need money. But if it's yours, I want it."
Ganondorf is plain ol evil in totk so he probably would've started invading the other lands just because
That's the issue, he doesn't want to keep his head on. He wants EVERYONE to bow down to him. If you don't he will kill everyone around you. And don't forget he naturally leaks EvilAIDS, so assuming you submit to him, you would still have monster running around and fucking shit up.
some taint of Demise guides him towards destruction and corruption, it isn't that he's a reincarnation of Demise, but some taint of his malice always clings to Ganondorf.
it likely doesn't make sense even to him, because ruling a world where everyone is dead is meaningless to him or anyone else but an actual demon.
I wonder if any incarnation of Link and Zelda will rediscover that Demise's rightful hatred of Hylia is the root of everything, and that they use the Triforce to finally banish it from perpetuating the endless cycle.
they cannot, as Demise IS Evil, hatred, and malice.
Mortals all have that in their hearts, and thus it will always exist, and so, some part of Demise will as well, forever.
People forget that Demise is still alive and well even in BotW's time inside of the Master Sword eroding away.
>A Zelda game where Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf use the Triforce to banish all gods and goddesses from their realm, so mortals may live in peace
Sounds like something that would go horribly wrong, like Lorule wishing away their triforce to stop the civil wars over it.
nah see then the trio goes around Hyrule to enforce the peace
it's all good
I was thinking more that the fabric of the universe would unravel. Just wishing away your triforce causes the world to crumble and fall apart. I can only imagine that wishing away your gods would be even more devestating.
We SMT now, boys.
Demons in Zelda suck, you can't purge these morons even weilding literal god tier weapons, best you can hope for is some shitty seal that will inevitably break in a few hundred years at best.
The only game Ganondorf shows even a modicum of nuance was in Wind Waker, he's literally a cackling evil demon king in every appearance before and since, yet WWfaga act like their version is the "canon" one and all the others are misrepresentations.
Not the only canon one. But the best one.
Because in WW he was no longer Ganondorf, but Ganon.
He already transformed into the Demon King Ganon and still got his shit pushed in by Adult Link. It humbled him a bit.
People that trust what Ganon said unironically trust what politicians say and still vote for them after they fuck everything for them. Actions will ALWAYS speak louder than words.
lucky for them people are so action deaf.
Aye I got a question, who the fuck is Demise?
I couldn't bother beating SS but who the fuck is this random Demon that suddenly pops out of nowhere?
he's literally just a random demon sealed by hylia
Some random powerful demon.
no, he's Evil itself.
A sort of demon God that more or less reincarnated into the being known as Ganon/dorf.
He was suposed to be a prehistoric Ganon and the origin of the curse but it's not important. Not even Nintendo gives a fuck about the timeline.
he's the literal concept of Evil, Malice, and Hatred, if the Goddesses all embody things, then there are things that embody negative emotions, Demise is primordial evil, so primordial and archetypical, that everyone sees him as something different.
on his death he swears that some aspect of him will continue, and in this he is correct, because so long as a single mortal exists, so to will evil, no matter how small, and thus Demise will always exist.
Ganondorf is the inheritor of some of Demises malice, he is not a reincarnation of him, but an inheritor of the archetype.
Demon king that tormented the lands with monsters before hylia sealed him and decided to fuck off with humanity to Skyloft.
At the end of the game, you fight him and he "curses" you dooming link and zelda into a life of conflict. Retards think he is saying that demise reincarnates each time to fuck link and zelda, but he means more in a karmic way that link and zelda will always be destined to fight evil people, explaining all the games in the franchise.
So yeah, Dorf is NOT demise.
>Retards think he is saying that demise reincarnates each time to fuck link and zelda, but he means more in a karmic way that link and zelda will always be destined to fight evil people, explaining all the games in the franchise.
Finally someone who actually read the fucking text in that cutscene
I wish that tens of thousands of years of conflict was because of some metaphysical force of hatred, instead of a random guy who got big mad
He's basically the Demon King. Ganondorf may have taken up the title because of his demonic prowess, but Demise is a literal king of demons, arguably their god. By the end of Skyward Sword, Demise had resurrected, but is sealed into the Master Sword, but he curses the very world with his hate as he does so, and claims that an incarnation of his hatred will forever follow Hylia's bloodline and the hero's spirit that stand against him.
Thinking about it, Ganon talked about how he wanted something more than suffering and ruin out of the wind
And was that reflected in a single place he had influence over? Was there anything he made, with the unlimited power at his hands, that was more than just brutality and tyranny?
As if! He had the means, even during the Wind Waker period, to become more than just a raider and pillager and he did absolutely none of it. He talked a good talk and didn't walk a single step of it.
The Forsaken Fortress and what his creatures were doing was proof of him being a dick who never changed but that requires Ganker to play the game and not just watch the ending on youtube.
You know. At the point of TotK Ganondorf can genuinely make the argument to Link and Zelda that the goddess's pettiness has done more damage and permanent harm to the kingdom than he ever could have.
If Ganondorf could just like....not be a complete dumbass for like 5 minutes he could probably actually convince Link and Zelda to abandon their gods with him.
Fujibayashi seems to have a thing against letting Ganon have motivations.
It's fine to have him be evil but even OoT had ganon want to take power for his people
Skyward Sword and beyond has had Ganon be this malicious force of evil with basically no real personhood, just the act of covering the world in darkness.
>great backstory that's also relatable to not only the protagonist but the player
>good characterization and writing
>only the villain for one game
>mogs every other Zelda villain to date
Skull Kid is not Majora's Mask. Majora's Mask is the villain, Skull Kid is just a pawn. This is like praising Zant. Majora's Mask sucks dick.
Zant is still a good villain, not the main one but still good. And the moon section is trippy enough to make Majora memorable. A good take in a more chaotic evil contrary to dorf. But then again, MM was done in a year and a half, so who knows what's intentional and what's because they ran out of time.
Zant was great right up until you actually fought him and he turns into some gayy dancing clown. That fucker was pure MENACE up until that moment.
The insinuation is that Majora was not really directing the SK actions but simply allowing him the power he needed to act the way he always wanted to. Even long before the SK encountered the mask salesman, he is said to have been a troubled, lonely child whose pranks steadily became more and more vicious and sadistic, until eventually he is found to be delighting in malice and suffering. The four giants explicitly cast out and shunned him for this reason, causing him to become bitter, antisocial, and lonely, driving him into an even darker place. The best thing about Majora is that he is only one-half of the villain, and the kino lies in the fact that the SK is in fact acting out of his own desires, simply amplified by the immense power he has now acquired.
>Majora can control the moon to kill everyone
>No Skull Kid wasn't being controled
Skul Kid is literally just an ugly kid that likes pranks. He turning into a demigod wasn't his choice.
You misinterpreted his character. The game strongly implies throughout that the SK was behind these actions, he was merely acting with the power that Majora possess, but Majora himself was dormant and inactive, resting. There is no reason for Majora to do the cruel pranks that the SK does, given that Majora is an archdemon and not something connected to or attached to the people of Termina and their plight. The "pranks" that the SK does with this power and monstrous and cruel but are recognizably petty and motivated by spite. Majora merely facilitates the SK's desires, he even implies such when he discards SK as a mere vessel or shell.
When a demon is possessing someone we don't blame the host for what is hapening. All the demonic actions are from Majora. After Majora fucking died Skull kid is feeling remorse because he is a good person and feel like it's his fault when Link and the giants know that's not true.
Nah, the SK is absolutely behind these actions, he is just free to pursue his previously impossible passions because of his powerlessness. We can still blame the drunk driver for his actions even if he was acting under the influence, the SK was very much in control and relishing his deeds under Majora, who does not even speak or indicate that he is alive until the final 3rd night. SK's actions are also consistent with his persona as a cruel, giggling child armed with power using it to concoct pranks, snowballing into acts of terrorism against Termina. In the end, the SK is essentially powerless and Majora is defeated, and the Giants/Link choose to forgive him instead, out of empathy and to avoid what happened when he was banished in the past. He's a homeless feral child that is implied to be a bit simple, but nonetheless, they wouldn't be wrong in trying to persecute him either.
Skull Kid was the one doing all of the crazy shit, Majora was just sitting back and feeding off of his desires because they aligned with his, which was to bring death and destruction
That's not true at all, Majora was definitely manipulating him to do those things. Skull kid didn't desire to bring death and destruction, he desired to get back at the giants because they abandoned him to watch over the Terminians.
All the way through the three day cycle, there's bits of dialogue and even shit bluntly shown to you that the Mask is clearly pulling the strings behind the scenes before just blatantly ditching Skull Kid to empower the moon itself to finish the job after the giants stopped it.
It's useless anon, he doesn't understand that with possession the demon is always the one doing the things. The victim will think it's them when that's not true. You can always see how Skull Kid act, he is completely possessed and is just the mask using hims as a puppet. Majora only leaves him because he passed out.
Majora is not a character, it is more of a plot device. You are right that it is possessing Skull Kid, but Skull Kid's character IS the detail surrounding the villain.
Least retarded Ganker user. The game all but spells out that Majora is only a catalyst and that the Skull Kid is acting out his desires now that he has unstoppable, absurd power.
Majora was the villain not Skull Kid anon
>Majora was the one who wanted to steal Link's ocarina and horse, put a boulder by the ranch, poison the swamp, freeze the gorons, pollute the bay, raise the dead, kill the deku butler's son, break up the great fairies, and other petty shit
Majora was definitely the "Let's summon the moon to fall" but everything else was on Skullkid. You don't blame the alcohol when a drunk driver kills someone
ya know its good Link delt with Majora's Mask.
that shit was beyond powerful and chaotic, even ToTK Ganondorf can't casually do feats like it could.
Majora is a literal space aids dancing demon with no backstory whatsoever. Skull Kid isn't a villain.
I don't understand how peoole fall for WW Ganondorfs grift.
>"I coveted that wind I suppose"
>"Heh heh....the wind... it is blowing..."
it wasn't much, but I always thought it was a nice little touch to him
>Waah why didn't Nintendo turn Ganon into Abby from the Last Of Us
the absolute state of Ganker
I'd dig a playable ganon adventure.
>asking a villain to not be one note is bad
How much of a soap opera do you want Ganondorf to be? How many hours do you want to watch him explain in great depth why he traveled down the dark path to do what he does and why?
>asking for more than a one note villain is somehow asking for a soap opera
Not every villain needs to be deep. In real life many people do evil shit because it amuses them or some other petty reason, or they seek power for the sake of having power. Why is it wrong for fictional characters to be the same?
You keep taking what I say and throwing it to the extreme.
Asking for Ganondorf to have a bit more character or personality is not the same as asking for Ganondorf to have hours of backstory or dialogue explaining motivation. All I ask is that the main villain be a bit more interesting in the story next time. That's all.
All these things in the real world still stem from more depth than "just because" though. It takes a lot of cope to overcome one's natural tendency towards empathy, and takes unusual circumstances for one to fail to develop empathy, therefore even the pettiest and most unmotivated person you could meet, still has some modicum of intrigue as to how they became the way that they are. Ignore Catholics, noone is born evil.
I think an interesting twist would be to make Ganon start out as a somewhat brash and edgy but still good hearted friend to Link and Zelda that eventually gets corrupted by DAHKNESS and goes full Demon King by the end.
Then just make an entirely new character at that point frankly.
Even half an hour of cutscenes would be more enough to flesh that out, and remember that this is a 100+ hour game.
Instead we get shit like Fursuit Jesus shooting a Spirit Bomb laser to kill 10 trillion moldugas, and Zelda's evil clone distracting Queen Shaniqua before Ganondorf kills her and takes the power stone. Not that I want these games to have Fromsoft's approach to story and lore, but these plot beats really would have come across far more effectively and used up far less dev effort if they were just inscriptions somewhere, like maybe Zelda is sending written messages through time that Link is tracking down.
villains are allowed to just be evil
Why put effort into something that will get a 10/10 across the board anyway?
why would the same character, hundreds or thousands of years apart, possibly in different timelines, behave exactly the same?
>He says this as TotK Ganondorf behaves exactly the same as OoT and TP Ganondorf
whats the complaint then?
The same one you had here:
so you realized you were being silly.
because Link and Zelda do as well.
souls reincarnate here, especially those.
He's a fucking giant man pig guy that makes evil pig dudes appear just because he exists you really think he needs a motive to be evil?
>"You know, Hitler loved people and liked things too"
What an insightful and original statement
Did he though? How do we know that? You should watch that anti semitism buddy
What exactly would make Ganon interesting?
A ten minute speech full of smiles and laughter about how much he loves being evil, about how being a philistine is an amazing rush, and how a good fight is the best?
properly explaining his motivations as something tanglible beyond being pure evil for no reason.
>properly explaining his motivations as something tanglible beyond being pure evil for no reason.
Well, let's see then
Would it work because he was wronged and seeks redress? But that requires him to have been innocent and for him to feel justified in taking it out on people like Lunk and Zeldar. That just leads to weak excuses.
How about improving society through his vision? That's pretty unconvincing with all the necromancy and monster armies and destruction he throws around.
How about if he is about rebelling against the Goddesses?
They haven't done a damn thing before or since Wind Waker and aren't going to. They didn't throw the Gerudo into the desert. They didn't incite the race wars. They literally did nothing. Negligence is not the best reason to declare endless war over.
it can be any and all of those reasons and then some, he can believe he has genuine justifications for his actions, and he can still be pure and irredeemably evil.
"gerudo desert is a hellhole, hyrule is a fertile crescent, I hate and resent them for it and I want them to suffer" is a logical reason for doing evil. it does not require him to have been a good person at any point, he could be a complete piece of shit from the second he was born.
giving ganondorf logical, human motivations does not mean making him "good". horrible, psychopathic people exist in real life. it just means that his motives should be something other than "making the whole world darkness" for no reason whatsoever.
>it can be any and all of those reasons and then some, he can believe he has genuine justifications for his actions, and he can still be pure and irredeemably evil.
>it just means that his motives should be something other than "making the whole world darkness" for no reason whatsoever.
It's not like he feels like he's conflicted about covering the world in darkness. Why does it not count?
it's illogical, senseless, and borderline meaningless. there's no meaning, justification, or explanation. they could have easily went with an angle like him hating the gods/zonai for being "above" him, and wanting to crush hyrule/rauru to feed a narcissistic god complex. there's logic behind that, the character and his motives are understandable.
>it's illogical, senseless, and borderline meaningless.
Ganon doesn't seem to think the same, it's certainly a worthwhile thing to do for himself.
you can say that about literally any character doing anything, it doesn't stop it from being wading-pool shallow. it means the dev didn't care/felt lazy/is a shit writer.
It's not like Hyrule has ever had a single valid reason for Ganon, much less anyone else, to raze and destroy it.
I'm not gonna disagree than Nintendo is extraordinarily lazy, but there never was any logical backing to Ganon's actions and never will be. He has always followed his own horrible desires to the end, that's the character he is.
At this point, Ganondorf has been living the cycle for millennia, and if he has any recollection of his previous lives he would have long abandoned hope of ever getting out of the cycle and just embraced it, it's normal to him, it's his life and has been this way for an epoch, why fight it? He clearly enjoys fighting, dominating, and bringing ruin to his enemies and the curse means he will always have an enemy to fight, a people to conquer, and a hero to eventually fall to in battle. What better life could a mad demon king possibly ask for?
Genuine question: why does one need tangible justification for desiring domination? There exist those even if real life who want power for the sake of power, not because of some childhood trauma or because they think their rule will fix the world. It is greed plain and simple. That is motivation enough. Not all villains need to have deep complex motives or justification for wanting power.
Yeah that would actually be pretty cool. A Ganondorf that enjoys fighting and conquering shit forghe fulfillment it brings him instead of just being evil because the magic demon genese said so would be a lot of fun.
WAKU WAKU LINK! IS THAT THE SWORD THAT SEALS THE DARKNESS? WOULDN'T WORK ON ME, BUT I BET MY KAMEHAMEHA CAN SEAL YOUR SOUL IN OTHERWORLD!
Yes, that would unironically be kino and would make psychoanalysis moralgays absolutely seethe because they have nothing to split hairs about
>b-b-buh he can't just be evil!
why the hell not?
Either retconning that Demise garbage and have him have logical desires and reasons for his evil shit, or a Ganon who hates that's he's just a cat's paw for Demise's hate boner and wants to break the cycle as his primary motivation.
>Ganon's realizes he's just been a pawn of some fucko who's been dead for maybe a hundred thousand years
>grudgingly works with Link and Zelda so he can become a true master of his own fate
Sure, I'd go for it.
He wouldn't be a villain in that case since the way to break with all that Demise crap is to utterly reject it in favor of helping the world, helping people.
That is, if he really was willing to fight for freedom.
ONE MUST CONSIDER TRUE FREEDOM
He can still be a villain, but more of a humanized one. An asshole who lusts for power and is jealous of Hyrule, but wants to rule it tyrant style like in OoT instead of "destroy everything because demon". I still think Demise/Hylia are the worst, because their addition completely overshadows the golden goddesses who I think are better as detached creator deities in the setting. Hell, you could have had Din be some remote antagonistic but ultimately neutral force helping out Ganon merely because he's her champion as the wielder of Power.
This is what I expected before TotK released, once they showed the glowup in character design they gave Ganondorf, and how different he looked to the "Demise" guy standing in front of the blood moon.
Instead we got somehow the least nuanced Ganondorf since Zelda 1.
For the eleventh time, Ganondorf is not cursed by demise.
Ganondorf is doing everything of his own free will. And if he learned of the past, he would probably laugh at how retarded Demise was and try to one up him by actually succeeding.
>Either retconning that Demise garbage
They already did. BoTW onwards is disconnected with previous Zelda games.
Again, whatever serves the plot.
Oot did it best by making all the issues in hyrule his direct fault and they actually name him but also making him encounter the player during key moments. So the player, after befriending the many tribes, feels compelled enough to WANT to defeat him.
Oh hey, a legitimate criticism in the bihourly TotK seethe thread. They were clearly wanting the game's plot to be a modernized take on Ocarina of Time, but they forgot about what made Ganondorf such an engaging villain: he directly fucks shit up and confronts you multiple times during the game. While the monsters causing the phenomena around Hyrule are clearly his monsters, there's still a feeling of disconnect where they feel more like random beasts that just happen to fuck shit up while Ganondorf is chilling out and waiting for the final battle.
tldr: Ganondorf's problem isn't that he's pure evil, it's that he's not a proactive villain.
The material clearly there too but the game's structure is the issue here. Mainly that they stick to BotW plot structure in a game that really needed a more linear story telling. They should have had each sage tell you about the past instead of repeating the exact same lines. That way you can tell an actual story instead and keep the open world aspect.
They should've put more thought into alternative dialogue if you've already done one of the dungeons. Same with all of your buddies just saying "I'll stay here and keep an eye out for Princess Zelda!" after you finish their quest even if you have the Master Sword (or at least finished all the dragon tears) and thus know exactly what's up with Zelda. It's weird since they do put a lot of thought in some aspects and it's not like they didn't have the resources to do a couple alternative cutscenes here and there.
HURRR HURRRR HURRRR HURRR HAAAAAAAAAH
what does this post mean?
HURRRRRR HURRRRRR HAAAAAAAAAH
I haven't completed the game yet but knowing that this new Ganondorf is a different Ganondorf completely kills the character for me. The whole point was that Ganon was this huge asshole that was too angry to die. Now you're telling me there's just another one that happened to be a male Gerudo again named Ganondorf that happens to be evil again. Making Ganondorf into this entity that reincarnates like Link is even worse than all that shit about Demise. Demise is just why Ganondorf just can't fucking die. What was the whole point of making him a fucking zombie and all that about Calamity Ganon if it's not even the same fucking guy? Everything gets stupider the more you think about it.
I thought Mummydorf was just controlling Calamity/Dark Beast Ganon while dormant
I know but him just being new Ganondorf doesn't explain why he has a lifetime of seethe in order to create Calamity Ganon. So he failed once or twice then became the incarnation of seethe? If it's the Ocarina Ganondorf he's failed time and time again. So this asshole is just angry for no reason.
OOT Ganondorf only ever fails twice, due to branching timelines he fails twice in 3 seperate timelines, and then either dies for good (TP, WW) in two of them, or turns into Ganon for many years (LTTP, Zelda 1, Zelda 2).
he doesn't come back "time and time again", TP Ganondorf is the imprisoned Ganondorf from the "Link Snitched" timeline and then dies promptly at the end of that game, for good.
same for WW, all Ganondorf's had 2 goes of it.
He dies for good in Zelda 1 too. Zelda 2 he never revives because Link doesn't die.
What exactly happened to TP Ganondorf that made him lose his Triforce piece and die? Is Zant cracking his neck implying he somehow intervened?
yea, Zant and him had some sort of Connection keeping Ganondorf alive/empowered.
Zant realized he was the dupee and not the duper, and killed him, and Ganondorf's hold on the Triforce of Power simply was ceased, it did not grant him a second chance.
twilight princess was the gods proving a point about fate. ganondorf's fate is to get the triforce of power and get defeated by link. the sages erroneously intervened and tried to circumvent that fate, so the gods rectified the mistake.
I feel this is correct, which makes the gods of the setting insanely controlling, petty, and frankly, malicious, that they put everyone through this cycle of conflict purely because they say it is to be so.
TP ganondorf is reincarnated at the end of that timeline, and WW ganondorf isn't sealed away, not dead. neither of them are dead.
he died for good in TP, WW and Zelda 2.
that is the literal end of the character in all the branching timelines.
did you think those games were all sequential? they weren't, at the end of TP, he simply fucking dies, same as WW, and Ganon Dies at the end of Zelda 2, all of them for good.
That doesn't really stop anything though. He can die then still be revived over and over again. Breath of the Wild still made sense in that his physical body was gone but his hatred remained and took the form of an abomination. But then Tears of the Kingdom comes along and says actually that was a different guy. So this different guy just happens to die to someone not named Link or Zelda then becomes pure hatred? My problem is this guy just being some random guy that happens to be like Ganondorf. None of this would be happening if they just said yeah it's the same guy. Or maybe it was the same guy that time traveled to the same point Zelda did. God I fucking hate time travel outside of dedicated time travel stories.
are you.. retarded?
do you have a problem that Link is always a new kid who just happens to have the spirit of the Hero, and Zelda the spirit of Hylia?
that's okay, but Ganondorf being a reincarnation this time, isn't?
Yeah I do have a problem with that. Up until this point he's been literally the same guy. Because they could have just made a new character like Malladus or Demise. Instead they have a guy called Ganondorf that looks like Ganondorf, acts like Ganondorf, sounds like Ganondorf and even has the same backstory as Ganondorf and then they're saying actually he's a different guy. Unless this was a completely different continuity and this is the first and only Ganondorf it would make sense. But they literally reference past characters and events like Princess Ruto existing so it's the same continuity or some kind of merged continuity. They just threw all that in the trash. No it doesn't make any fucking sense that this is a new Ganondorf. Out of all ways to use Ganondorf having him only actually do anything in fucking flashback cutscenes that take place long before even the Calamity happens and then revealing actually he's a different guy should never have been it.
This is the biggest disappointment. Gannondorf not knowing Link and Zelda for what he can partially remember through the Calamity but because Time Travel bullshit meant Zelda met this guy early on and told some random dude about Link who tells Ganon that eventually someone will kick his ass. If this was all for the sake of making it accessible to people who didn't play the first it was a misguided move.
the real ganondorf is and was always underground, and the rest are reincarnations/apparitions. this is how he is always able to come back, reincarnation, escape unescapable seals, etc.
Ganondorf is literally a social justice warrior.
>"Gibs me dat"
>"He dindu nuffin"
>"It's the Goddesses' fault"
>"It's Hyrule's fault"
>"Noooo I need to be given everything because some people have it better than me. I'll do horrible shit and then say it's for my people. Huh? What do you mean I have amassed money and power and can use it to help my people now? Fuck that I'm taking it all for myself."
>"Noooo I need to be given everything..."
I think he pretty much took everything by himself. There was no welfare giving him all the shit.
nah it's more like
>I have to suffer while hyrule is a paradise
>I want paradise
>is willing to even sacrifice his own people, his own soul, and his own life to get it
it's why he's the triforce of power, it's all sheer force of will. y'know, until lmao demise
It's weird to me how fans bitched about Calamity Ganon just being a monster and not having a human form. The fanbase is riddled with Ocarina babbies who can't let go of the fucking past and Nintendo took this criticism to heart and gave us Ganon back to back in two games because of it. Zelda fans can't deal with different villains and act as if Dorf is some amazing masterclass in writing
thank you for reminding me calamity ganon exists
what fucking trash
a lot of people these days like to humanize villains, and demonize humans.
Gannondorf in OoT just has an evil heart, its by touching the triforce and gaining his wish to rule over Hyrule that turns him into the evil Ganon
So we just gonna ignore the fact the king of hyrule isna goat
TotK doesn't give a fuck about Zelda lore
It's high time Nintendo stopped fooling around and properly brought back their best villain.
Literally what is wrong with a villain that is just unashamedly evil?
people are so mindbroken by real life, being told that the bad guys are heroes.
It has to be done right, and TotK Ganon is not.
But your notion of "done right" is meaningless moral-drivel. Real life, actual warlords from history both recent and ancient by and large had the same thought process; they simply enjoyed their "evil" acts, they enjoyed their lives as killers and torturers and conquerers and did very little thinking about their actions, they just liked it and it was normal to them, like how you don't have a moral dilemma every time you brush your teeth or take a piss, it was just you doing what you do, and these men likewise grew up in vastly different times and circumstances. All morality is socially constructed and meaningless fiction anyway, so there is no reason why a character cannot be pure evil, totally self-interested, and venal. There is absolutely no reason why Ganon needs complex moral motivations or "nuance" to his character, he can just be the guy that does the villainous things and that's fine, he can just be a cavalier conquerer who acts out of sheer malice, and this is in a sense more interesting than the dindu nuffin who makes half-hearted gestures of morality while still acting as a villain.
>all the people speculating that he would have some more complex motivation, or that he might actually work with you at some point against the dragon people.
all down the drain lol
so what future incarnation of Ganon will be used in the third game
they'll retread a version of Majora's Mask, with some of the cast going to an Alternate dimension so they can keep this cast of characters for a 3rd game but a somewhat new Map.
Yeah, we'll probably visit BotW-verse Termina.
nah botw was about a present threat
totk is about the past catching up with the present
with how well totk sold on the model of building on top of the previous game I guarantee you they'll do a third game in this hyrule about interacting with the future.
So A Link to the Future will become real, eh?
I have high doubts they'll revisit Majora's Mask or Termina given how Miyamoto feels about the game and setting. A TOTK era Termina with more advanced technology would be very cool
You mean Aonuma.
Aonuma has been very open about his dislike for MM and not understanding why people love it so much.
If we do get a new Termina-ish map, it'll be done HIS way, aka the boring way
this image scares Aonuma-san
I wouldn't be surprised if the next game has a similar premise to something like A Link to the Past, Ocarina, or Majora's Mask. BotW was set so far in the future so they could basically do a complete reboot but not piss off timeline autists. They even used the ancient tech and post-apocalyptic idea from NES Zelda concepts. They'd probably like to reimagine the other basic ideas as well.
I wonder if they'll let Koizumi work on this one since if it involved Termina. He WAS one of the writers.
It's not about "letting." Koizumi is in an upper management position now, a "Senior Executive Officer." He doesn't make games anymore, even if he wanted to (which I kind of suspect he does) he won't be involved going forward.
Ganondorf will never team up with Link to fight the gods and this edgy fanfic idea is gay
Why do windwakerfags put so much stock in a few lines? Ganondorf is one of the most obviously evil characters in vidya history.
Is it autism?
It's just stupid children pretending they know what good writing is. At least, I hope it's just kids otherwise this is the most embarrassing thread I seen all week.
because a prince becoming a great evil through sheer force of will is a lot more unique than lmao demise. it's not even about WW, it's simply that SS and the whole demise crap is just lame.
They really are good lines, but people miss that it's driven home by the fact that he's essentially acting out of character. It's the contrast of the normally pure evil villain appearing somewhat thoughtful that sells WW Ganondorf. If he was always like that, it wouldn't be as notable.
WW would work if it was the last game of the series, or at least the last game with Dorf in it. After countless years of strife and hardship earning him nothing, he can only muse on the past before Hyrule, the King and himself is washed away forever.
Big chud dick moron cock
Breath of the Wild just feels a bit unromantic and lacking mystery and (I hate for using this word) soul.
There is always a certain undercurrent mysticism and macabre present, a genuine sense of discovery and adventure that the pure open structure of the new games take away. I don't know, maybe it is the aesthetics, but it just doesn't feel like Zelda.
Because its literally what Demise is and what drives Ganondorf's motivation
At least WW's Ganondorf already won at some point and stood virtually uncontested for ages.
I refuse to believe that thing that could destroy the master sword while he was a mummy of his former self is ganondorf.
The master sword sucks now, it can barely strike a few foes before it "runs out of energy"
Fuck BOTW/TOTK for ruining the Master Sword. More likr BITCH Sword.
Fuck off, no one wants Disney's Le Good Guy Reddit-dorf
bros out here caring about the story in a zelda game
>WW "Do not worry, I will not kill you. I want to put an end to our suffering."
>Literally spends the entire game doing evil shit regardless
>why do people not behave completely logically or do things and then say something else
the point is his words can't be trusted
>the first line somehow contradicts the second?
Zelda has always had terrible writing outside of MM, SS and WW.
Only games where the subtitle is composed of the same two letters can have good writing.
Cool bait, but it doesn't explain what would happen if Zelda were to become a horse, so I'm afraid you failed to persuade me.
>OP when a villain from a game for 7 year olds doesn't practice Kantian morality
Best Link coming through
duo antagonists that are vastly different in power and use each other for their own gains is KINO
they reversed it because people wanted to be gay for him
if you gays werent like "HE IS JUST A MISUNDERSTOOD GUY WAAAAA LET HIM FUCK MY BOIPUSSS" koizumi would've been the writer
One thing I agree with barafags on is that it would be neat to have a game with an OoT style, still all the way human Ganon that starts as a cool noble warrior king that acts as a mentor to Link. Where we differ is that I still want him to become evil and be the villain. Not only would it make for an interesting Ganon, having to grapple with the internal conflict of standing up to a respected father figure would make for a Link that comes across as more than just a yes man that dutifully does as he us told. It even opens up room for a more interesting (but still not playable) Zelda. Since Ganon and the Gerudo would initially be your allies and providers of guidance, that would allow Zelda and the kingdom of Hyrule to occupy a semi-antagonistic role, at least at the start. I'm thinking Hyrule is still recovering from the sort of civil war that orphaned OoT Link and Zelda is forced to adopt a jaded and pragmatic form of Wisdom in order to hold things together. Basically ALBW Hilda but actually smart.
That's gay as fuck and wouldn't make any sense.
>That's gay as fuck
I'll concede that point.
>wouldn't make any sense
I'm talking about doing a totally different Ganon in the same way that Links and Zeldas usually aren't the same person. Totk seems to have finally thrown out the idea of there being any sort of continuity, so I figure having a Ganon that isn't the standard one or tied up with any demise bullshit is fair game now. He can just be the one every hundred years male Gerudo king. He'd still be associated with/attain the triforce of power and still ultimately be the villain in the same way that Links and Zeldas retain those sorts of characteristics. But how he gets there can take a different route.
So the Sekiro approach basically
>Link is found by Ganondorf and taken in as an apprentice
>Training him in combat for one purpose
>To conquer Hyrule
>As link you eventually either side with Hyrule and kill Ganondorf
>you kill the Hyrule king
>Ganondorf congratulates for helping takeover Hyrule
>Ganondorf walks towards the balcony to get a good view of the land.
>You pull out your sword and stab Ganondorf in back
>Taking the triforce of power for yourself.
>Now with both the triforce of courage and power
>you turn to zelda
>ready to take the triforce of wisdom from her
I haven't actually played Sekiro yet, but if it does something like that then yes.
I just think Zelda with its well established character archetypes and symbols is a perfect opportunity for the myth/fairy tale treatment of writers being able to play around with the specific execution of things while still leaning on and leaving intact the fundamental identities. They sort of already do this to an extent, but I think it could be taken further. Like just think about Impa in my hypothetical fan fiction. She could still be the loyal royal servant and wise protector and administrator of the kingdom that she always is. But you could explore that same archetype during a time when the kingdom is barely holding together, when that sort of person is driven to adopt a more ruthless approach. It could create an opportunity for Zelda to be a proper ruler and living embodiment of Wisdom for a change and rein in a well intentioned but overzealous subject, who relents because she is still fundamentally righteous. Also, you could get a sick boss fight against an old magic ninja lady.
>BotW lore shows an ancient hero fighting off the calamity in the long distant past
>warrior with dark skin and blazing red hair shown in the ancient murals
Could Ganondorf actually have been a hero in the past and was corrupted by darkness so long ago that his fall has been lost to history?
>actually it was some furry ancestor of Link LMAO
there's good opportunity there to imply that the gerudo trace themselves to an ancient hero that was cursed so that all of his descendents would mostly female and that a great twisted evil male prince would one day show up... but lmao demise, lmao furry
If you dislike pure evil Ganon you are low test and most likely a manlet
its the same gannondorf from WW; he was calm until he got cucked by king of hyrule then he went insane.
it's not. ToTK Ganondorf is not one from any before, this is a completely new Ganondorf born in this BotW timeline
TotK Dorf is based as hell
>shit-talks goatman to his face about not leaving with the rest of his kind, implying he's the runt of the zonai, fit only to rule over mortals
>says 'well if you dont wanna use your god rocks properly, allow me', nabs that shit off his wife, taunts him about dead wife to his face again
He exemplifies POWER more than any other incarnation of the guy who's supposed to be about POWER
zelda needs more cosmic horror. the plain medieval setting is getting a little boring.
Majora did this but Aonuma hated it
I wouldn't call majora a cosmic horror.
It's the closest you're going to get. Possible ayylmao demon from nowhere with no history who comes out of nowhere in a land where everyone is an identical clone of the people Link previously knew.
>tries to fuse with a celestial body to destroy the planet
>literally mutates into a tentacle monster as its last phase
>gives the moon its most iconic schizo face
idk, seems pretty cosmic horror to me
You're retarded. Ganon from WW is literally the game guy from OOT who conquered the world but saw all of his achievements get sunk under the seas, who later realised that he's a relic of the past and shouldn't hold back the new generation. His final moments are spent permanently ruining Hyrule to force the two kids into making a brand new kingdom for themselves instead.
In the same vein, Ganon from TP is the same dude from OOT who was captured before he could experience his plans, thus never experienced the same fulfilment and is still as vengeful and power hungry as before.
The Ganon from TOTK is a totally different dude completely unrelated to any "Ganon" from the past with his own unique personality and circumstances as someone who's lived as the King of the Gerudos from birth with no interference from any existing kingdom. It has nothing to do with "mismanaged characterisation", he's a complete different being entirely. Sincerely have a nice day.
I never thought of him ruining Hyrule like that, I assumed that it was out of spite. Honestly touching if that was their true intention.
Anyone else want to see vaati come back?
I had a lot of fun playing 4 swords with buddies, and minish cap he had a cool theme. The design is also cool
Yeah, his speech sounds nice, but look at what he actually does when he has power. Does he uplift his people? No, he throws the world in chaos and destroys castletown. He is a child throwing a tantrum because someone else has a toy he wants, and then when he gets it, he breaks it.
>"I coveted that wind I suppose..."
>YEAH WELL COVET THIS WIND *BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP*
How does he respond bros?
>"I AM EVIL BECAUSE I JUST AM!"
This is based and soulful
I'm sick and tired of gay subversive misunderstood sympathetic deconstruction villains written by basedchugging pseud cunts who think they are so smart and genius for rebelling against their dad
Even worse is
>I am evil not because of my own agency, but of an ancient curse that dooms me to be a reincarnation of that ancient curse.
I mean, Ganondorf is supposed to be evil due to his own traits leading him to be evil, not because the plot demands he should be evil or of a deus ex machina ancient curse plot device. I can understand that those dumb barafags just want to change Ganondorf&Demise to Ganondorf&Knuckles, but I'm sure Nintendo realized that a so-called redemption arc for Ganondorf will lead to villain decay down the road, so they changed all the ominous lore elements of prerelease-TOTK Ganondorf(Dark Messiah-Ganondorf being ritually sacrificed to the ancient bloodthirsty Zonai gods to seal the Ganon-demon within him to be used as a power source to power Zonai tech) to Ganondorf retracing his steps to become Demise 2.0.
Skyward sword left it very ambigeous what he meant by "an incarnation of his hatred". I dont know why you gays suddenly thinks this means ganon has no free will. I imagine its more like his curse manifests itself in a man that is capable of carrying on the hatred that demise fealt. An ambitious leader fueled by malicous envy still fits this perfectly.
acting under the influence of an ancient curse of malice that forces or insidiously manipulates him to carry out the will of demise means he has no free will
You are refusing to comprehend what I am saying. "Manifestation of hatred" does not mean "being with no free will". By that logic, no one has free will because we are all products of our state of being at birth. Ganon can be someone born with a milicious heart, but still be completely cable of free will.
Ganon is a demi-god and blessed by the Triforce and Din, just as Link is a Demi-god blessed by farore.
They do not have "free will" they will always be exactly what they were destined to be.
This is your headcanon, pull right now where in any part of the game's said thing is stated.
Or where does in any time is stated the triforce is given directly by the gods (which is not true, the triforce acts on it's own)
>This is your headcanon, pull right now where in any part of the game's said thing is stated.
Each aspect of the triforce ( wisdom, courage and power) correspond to the Goddess, who personally bless Zelda, Ganon and link.
What the fuck are you on about. Of course the triforce at least corresponds to three goddessess. Where in the games do we see that the the eternal struggle is cause of "distiny determined by the goddesses"
Eh, WW link having to "earn" the triforce of courage doesnt really support this. Seems to me that theyve stepped into the blessings of the goddess due to there actions and deeds.
>Courage need not be le remembered
WW link is link. He was always going to be couragous. This isn't an "anyone could become big boss!" scenerio.
>This isn't an "anyone could become big boss!" scenerio.
It is, the world was flooded exactly because Link was returned in time, and he did not appear again.
>until he did return, as WW link, who just happened to be names link and wear the green tunic and be his reincarnation like all the others
If they didn't need a link, someone else would have saved hyrule from ganon before the flood.
Just because it ww link is the incarnation of the hero, it doesnt suddenly mean he was "destined by Farore" or anything. No one is arguing that ww link isnt link, just that he had to earn the triforce of courage. Him being link doesnt automatically making him "under the predetermined destiny of the godesses". Youre basically assuming your conclusion as part of your arguement
to be link, means you are blessed with the tridorce of courage, which = Farore. this isn't hard. You can't have a link without the courage. Link does not "earn" it why the hell do you think he gets reincarnated in the first place? We KNOW many links are just born with the courage inside them, it's not even tied to memory it's just IN them.
No, that is not what it "means to be link". That is PURE headcanon. It does not say this anywhere. The ONLY canon information on what it means to be link is to have the spirit of the original hero chosen by hylia, who, as far as we know, had nothing to do with the triforce of courage.
The goddesses usually don't have anything to do with bestowing the triforces. In fact, Din, who would be the one to bestow the triforce of power, has both directly and indirectly opposed Ganon. They created it, but it acts on its own. They only intercede when things break, like in WW.
Shouldnt he already have had the power of triforce of courage then?
>he was always going to be courageous!
>he just needed to prove himself and get the triforce of courage pieces because reasons
the physical peices of the triforce don't do anything and are just filler because WW was unfinished.
We see the true triforce dwells inside them. Wtf did zelda do to "earn" the triforce of Wisdom? The triforce is the power that glows on the hand.
It's not actually story filler, the triforce piece was ripped away from oot Link and shattered when he got sent back in time.
Which would still imply that they are fated anyway
In TP link bessed with the triforce of courage at birth. He always is, just as Ganon is born with power and zelda with wisdom, and have a personal relationship with each goddess.
Not really though? All that really implies is that the spirit of the hero is the only one who ever will inherit triforce of courage. That doesnt suddenly mean he has to follow it and no longer has free will
>That doesnt suddenly mean he has to follow it
lmao yes it does. He will always be what he is. Sorry Nature>>>>
. You aren't getting your reddit good guy ganon.
Eh? What does this have to do with ganon? Im not arguing for muh virtous ganon anywhere. The cycle is caused by the original battle between hylia and demise, not the triforce's individual blessings. Where in the fucking games does it state that obtaining a piece of triforce robs you of free will and requires you to behaive a certain way? You obtain the triforces pueces BECAUSE of the way you behaive
None of you should act liek ganondorf was ever a nuanced character
Totk ganondorf is clearly inspired by oot gandorf (such as the "bowing to the king" scene), and oot is peak ganondorf so i am ok with it.
I don't take Zelda as a chronological series seriously. It is obvious that most games were made without taking others into consideration, and a lot of stuff was estabilished after its effects were introduced. They also changed the timeline sometimes from what Nintendo told was canon...
Not that the stories from the games don't matter, but usually I see them as isolated cases, or as a continuous thing only when they are direct sequeles made by the same people soon after (like OOT and Majoras).
Hoping to find consistency in all games lore-wise is a waste.
Why does Ganon's final form have weakspots and the stone visible when all other examples in the world do not?
Because that's how you kill him in gameplay. If you had to kill one of the other Dragons they'd have their own weakspots.
Yeah it's a video game, but they didn't even try to address it in universe. If they'd have shown Zelda also having them at start and absorb them over time or something it would have solved it. At least with the other asspull they went "uh light and time uhh magic stuff".
That was after he tried to kill the hero twice, and he was trying to get the barely conscious hero to not get a panicked burst of energy.
*Spared the hero twice.
WW ganondorf is an older version of OOT ganondorf, and OOT gandorf is very much just "malicous and evil". I like to think WW Ganondorf's character traits come from the wisdom he's gained from losing to link already and going through all this shit before. Totk ganondorf mirrors Oot ganondorf in many way. Ambitious, evil, and overly cocky.
As I play I feel like this whole thing is a parallel to OoT with Ganondorf.
Yeah, especially in the scene where ganondorf and rauru meet at the castle.
>Super Mario Sunshine: How dare you interrupt my family vacation!
>The Super Mario Bros. Movie: We will sacrifice your friends for the wedding
In TOTK, how has noone checked the castle basement for thousands of years or however long it's been?
The king told Zelda it's forbidden, he is aware.
They only checked it because evil shit was pouring out and making people sick. Presumably whenever anyone in the royal family got curious, they went down there and saw the evil mummy and went "oh shit nevermind, nobody goes down there ever" and it remained sealed like that until Calamity Ganon happened.
Everyone thought Zelda was a big gay nerd for being in to Sheikah ruins. The same probably extended to spooky castle basements.
>moralautists attempt to deconstruct the ethics of a fictional brown man in a children's bing bing wahoo cartoon
>"HMMM... THIS "GANONDORF" MANLING DOESN'T SEEM TOO BAD, KILLING ALL THESE ELGI AND CURSING THEM FOR MILLENNIA? I DO THAT MYSELF"
>"OH HE'S GOT A FINE HOLD TOO, LOOK AT ALL THAT LAVA AND GOOD SOLID STONE"
>"HE'S BUILT BROAD AND STOUT TOO, LOOKS LIKE A GOOD DRINKER, I RECKON HE COULD SWING A FINE AZ."
Ganondorf, Zelda, and Link are the best candidates for a grudging as they can be infinitely grudged when they reincarnate, a Dwarf Thane could have his great-grandson collect on the grudge Millennia later.
>ganon makes an alliance with and then betrays the dwarves for no reason
>link no longer needs to fight him, he is now permanently hunted by dwarves for all of time, eternally grudged because he stole something from them 1000 years ago for the hell of it
None of it would be an issue if it weren't for the unified timeline bullshit. It was called 'Legend' of Zelda for a reason. They are legends, so each game is a standalone instance so it's okay if there's inconsistencies. But Nintendo ruined it just to sell a stupid book.
Explain how "The Legend of Zelda II" is a standalone instance.
Explain how Link's Awakening is a standalone instance.
You can literally google and use wayback machine to search and see A Link to the Past was always a prequel of "The Legend of Zelda".
You cand do the same with Ocarina of Time and see it was always a prequel to A Link to the Past.
Explain how Majora's Mask is a standalone instance too.
Explain how Wind Waker is a standalone instance when in the very first 5 mins the game tells you the events of Ocarina of time.
That's seven fucking games connected with one another. You are a retard who talks out of his ass and never played this shit until either the gamecube era or after. The timeline became a clusterfuck when Miyamoto stepped down and Aonuma took the reels making Twilight Princes and Wind Waker both sequels to OoT forgetting all the classic games existed and forcing them all into a third ramification.
WW Ganondorf is a much older character that narrowly let his ambitions slip through the cracks and watched the world he wanted to control fall into ruin. Of course they're going to be different when one is trying to restore the former glory of Hyrule while the other is actively trying to conquer it. Everything that TotK Ganondorf is trying to do is stuff that WW Ganondorf already did.